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Ballance changes to Shaolin Temple

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by philip, Jun 22, 2021.

  1. philip
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    philip Mixed Golem

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    Thoughts on December ballance changes Shaolin Temple

    Intro

    When I came back to Maplelegends after a long break I decided to sprint the last 8 levels for level 200. When I started grinding at 5-6F again, I realized the entire 5-6F map terrain was changed. Monks are now running into invisible walls, jumping, falling from places they did not fall from before and attacking people at the safe spot forcing you to stop training or if you were leeching stop you leeching session just to door and don’t forget to disbandon your entire party because your hs mule has to be leader.

    To sum it up 5-6F seems worse and buggier than before. These changes have successfully demotivated lots of 5-6F players that just want to train or sell leech even doing this washing event, which is another thing I would talk about too. Duo to the changes done in December I will just quote what as written:

    • Shaolin Temple monsters are now able to jump and are immune to freezing
      • After studying the techniques of those that came to kill their brothers, monsters of Shaolin Temple have now acquired the advanced skill of... jumping and immunity! This should make the map less dull and clustered, and more alive!
    So this is a direct nerf to I/L mages and F/P mages, I heard one argument that I/L mages were starting to use two channels for training as 1 person. I find it interesting and sad if this were to be the reason because of two things. First this goes against the ideal of the server being GMS-like (Monks were not immune to freeze/stun/paralyze). Second it diminishes the class identity and fantasy of one’s class. I can only imagine how sad I would be, if I was an I/L mage to finally be able to freeze monsters and how good it most feel and how sad it now is to have that taken away. F/P was nerfed with their summon skill Elquins not being able to freeze, so now mages are hit every 7 seconds by monsters. The changes correlates to people not wanting to train at 5-6F because of the huge hp and mp burn you have to endure. It is approximately 500 hp barb elixirs and 500 manabulls an hour you have to spend here and pots are not cheap its about 2m messos for just grinding one hour. I tried to test how many pots I used in one hour and calculated this to messos spend an hour aswell, so you would see I am not throwing random numbers out there.

    Method

    I ran two tests at 5-6F while training and a single test of leeching at petri to give a rough estimate of the pot burns and to compare the data. All tests set to 1 hour at a time with a stopwatch also I didn’t do more tests since I already had a good idea of how many pots were being used.


    Results

    1st test 5-6F

    I started with 2600 barbarian elixirs and 2600 manabulls and after 1 hour I had 2109 barbarian elixir and 2149 mana bulls

    491 barbarian elixirs and 451 mana bulls used and equivalent to 736.500 + 1.262.800 = 1.999.300 messos /hr


    2nd test – 5-6F

    2109 barbarian elixirs and 2149 mana bulls and after 1 hour the pots went to 1584 and mana bulls 1687.

    525 barbarian elixirs and 462 mana bulls used and equivalent 787.500 + 1.293.600 = 2.081.100 messos/hr


    Petri test

    1st test

    2002 barb elixr and 1737 mana bulls and after 1 hour the pots went to 1823 barb elixir and 1415 mana bulls

    179 barb elixir and 322 mana bulls used equivalent to 268.500 + 901.600 = 1.170.100 messos/hr



    Discussion

    Suggestion on how to fix the issue

    · The thing is now F/P and I/L has to repot every 7 second since Elquins and I/L doesn’t keep monks from running into them. As a compensation I think mages pet could do a stun to the monks or do a minor knockback. The stun would have the same duration as the freezing, which was removed.

    · Ban people who uses 2 channels just a 3 strike policy maybe

    Bug fixes

    · Fix priest’s door bug. In order to summon people anywhere in 5-6F, you have to have the priest’s mule create party.

    · Fix the shelf bug where monks can jump on and kill multiple mules, which mules and buyers can’t get up to again. See picture below I have like 30 more of theese pictures of my partner dead there
    upload_2021-6-22_22-23-11.png
    upload_2021-6-22_22-23-32.png
    · Fix monks so they do not walk into invisible walls, this isn’t Skyrim man

    · Fix monks so they do not fall from 6th floor to 5th. See picture below
    upload_2021-6-22_22-24-1.png
     

    Attached Files:

    • Disagree Disagree x 5
    • Agree Agree x 3
  2. Pepper
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    Pepper Wolfspider

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    I am pretty sure these changes were made to nerf exp gain and leech selling in this area so I don't think these changes will be made. What is the comparison exp per hour for 5-6 vs petri? It would make sense that you use more pots per hour for higher exp.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  3. NatteHond
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    NatteHond Skelosaurus

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    The left part next to the Mini Dungeon entrance is a safe spot
    It's a bit more annoying than the shelf to re-buff at but it is (as far as I know) a guaranteed safe spot
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. OP
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    philip
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    philip Mixed Golem

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    I mean you are right in a way. Theese are the december changes
    • Shaolin Temple monsters are now able to jump and are immune to freezing
      • After studying the techniques of those that came to kill their brothers, monsters of Shaolin Temple have now acquired the advanced skill of... jumping and immunity! This should make the map less dull and clustered, and more alive!
    But it was because I/L mages started to train in multiple maps on a single character. I think theese changes are agreeable and not op at all, ultimately fewer health pots spend training would be healthy to 5-6F. And I don't think they like going against their own ideals with giving monks imunities(gms-like), which they didn't have in the original game. When you ask about what the comparison in exp is between petri and shaolin it variates a lot from seller to seller, since it depends a lot on levels and method usually ppl say petri is 20 m/hr and shaolin is 40m/hr
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. OP
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    philip
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    philip Mixed Golem

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    Was wondering do you train at 5-6F yourself and if you do what level is your mage?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. OP
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    philip
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    philip Mixed Golem

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    Yeah 100%, that place is safe should had mentioned that. I do want to say that I wont go there its really clunky to move you mage over there if you have to deal with the mini game of climping the stairs. the whole intermission phase of rebuffing inbetween leeching or training makes eph suffer a lot, so you can't have it be too long. if they had a safe spot at the right side where the entrance to 7F is where a hs mule could hs that attacker that could help too, but thats about it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Pepper
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    Pepper Wolfspider

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    I was asking what your exp gain is from 5-6 in the 1 hour of testing verse what your exp gain was from petri in the 1 hour of testing. The meso lost alone isn't enough testing without also including the exp that was gained.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. OP
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    philip
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    philip Mixed Golem

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    I don't see why Exp is relevant here. I am testing how many pots I use an hour. Keep in mind that when I was testing this I been here for more than 200 hours so I had a really good idea on how many pots I used and it didn't differ a lot from partner to partner.
     
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  9. Pepper
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    Pepper Wolfspider

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    Okay well the whole point of grinding is to compare pot costs to something else. So either you need to compare pot costs vs mesos gained or pot costs vs exp gained. The exp gained in 5-6 is much higher than petri so obviously this would be more costly. I can argue the same thing that I don't need to use pots to kill stuff on HHG2 but I have to pot to kill skeles? How is that comparable at all? You have to have something to compare them to.
     
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  10. OP
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    philip
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    philip Mixed Golem

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    Can I ask you first do you have a mage and what level is it if you do? Because it sounds like you havn't experienced playing with theese changes. Obviously stronger monster = more hp and exp.
     
  11. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Pot cost will always be more at 5-6 regardless of freeze as its 3 ult cast vs 2 per spawn rotation. Which is also why you can a fair bit higher eph.

    However, you're pretty much burning mesos training at 5-6 with the pot cost and little loot you can actually pick up. I think this is a healthy trade off balance wise but I can see where OP is coming from. All in all 5-6 feels a bit clunky to train at as ice lightning. especially after the most recent changes that were made to the spawns.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  12. OP
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    philip
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    philip Mixed Golem

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  13. OP
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    philip Mixed Golem

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    I guess it is true, tho I can't speak of I/L and their blizzard skill, however I can still argue that at petrifighters you use 179 barbarian elixirs and at shaolin's 5-6F 510 barbarian elixirs almost 2,85 - 1:3 ratio x3times as many barbarian elixirs as petri that is significantly higher. You are essentially repotting every 7 second, the monks don't die they walk up to you and sit on you until they die. I think they should make elquins stun or freeze, so there is that little tiny moment of room to relax. I want you to go to 5-6F and I want you to see how many players are training there and compare those numbers to december, because the place is pretty dead just because of this change. Its playable, but its too taxing and too clunky.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. Huiae
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    Huiae Headless Horseman

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    Go Ob4. that's ideal map for you. not shaolin. nor petries. oneshottable, dank exp (if you tryhard), awesome income. If you want to get everything in one slingshot, you need to get there, instead of trying to change whole the world matches for you.
     
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  15. Pepper
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    Pepper Wolfspider

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    No I do not have a mage that I regularly do 5-6 but I understand how the game works. I think you may be misunderstanding my response as disagreeing with you. I am just saying that additional information such as exp per meso spent on pots or meso gain comparing petri vs 5-6 might actually be more informational and push for more of a change than just stating what amount of pots you are spending on one map verse another. There is a lot more involved in balancing a map than just how many pots you would use in an hour, so if you are spending 3 times the amount of pots vs petris but getting 3 times the amount of exp, that seems like a fair trade off. This is why I was asking you how the exp difference was. But if you are spending 3 times in pots and getting only 1.5 or 2 the amount of exp, and then on top of that lower mesos gain too, more of a disparity is visible in the data. I hope this makes more sense. I am not disagreeing with your post, I am just saying more data will be helpful if you are expecting an actual change.

    Although the reason for the freeze being removed and jump change was some cute little blurb, later in the thread they did state specifically:
    upload_2021-6-22_21-15-31.png
    Based on this, I would assume that the freeze change was also to address the ease of which multi-client could be completed in these maps and address leeching.

    But there was already quite a lot of discussion then about the changes:
    https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/christmas-2020-balance-changes.36030/
    https://forum.maplelegends.com/inde...h-data-and-suggestions-for-new-changes.36073/

    The EPH and rates where discussed thoroughly here, but we never really got a GM response that any changes would be made and here we are 6 months later. If you really would like a change, more data will help put into perspective that the balance is incorrect. If you are just ranting, then I will leave it alone.
     
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  16. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Yeah 5-6 is pretty underpowered. It could really use the bookshelf safespots again and have the mobs drop Mana Bulls instead of heart etcs so we can get back to true mage gameplay.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  17. Diziple
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    Diziple Pac Pinky

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    Game is getting easier
     
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  18. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    So many I keep forgetting
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    Boohoo my 150m eph spot requires me to use pots
     
  19. OP
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    philip
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    philip Mixed Golem

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    Do you still get 150 m eph? even after theese terrain changes? and some pots its 2m/hr from pots and barely not any mesos gained
     
  20. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    I'm not sure what the exact eph numbers these days are, but I have still heard various reports of them being extremely high.

    As mentioned before by others, you're choosing to grind at a map that gives insane exp and shit meso, that's just a tradeoff. If you want meso, go grind at a map like ToT.
     

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