1. Hello!

    First of all, welcome to MapleLegends! You are currently viewing the forums as a guest, so you can only view the first post of every topic. We highly recommend registering so you can be part of our community.

    By registering to our forums you can introduce yourself and make your first friends, talk in the shoutbox, contribute, and much more!

    This process only takes a few minutes and you can always decide to lurk even after!

    - MapleLegends Administration-
  2. Experiencing disconnecting after inserting your login info? Make sure you are on the latest MapleLegends version. The current latest version is found by clicking here.
    Dismiss Notice

Ballance changes to Shaolin Temple

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by philip, Jun 22, 2021.

  1. Jafel
    Offline

    Jafel Capt. Latanica

    346
    169
    278
    May 3, 2015
    Male
    9:33 PM
    KingSlime
    Outlaw
    70
    Twice
    I don't know how anyone hasn't mentioned this yet, but the real problem is that you typed ballance in the first place. If you just use typed balance then you wouldn't be dyslectic.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  2. Nightz
    Online

    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

    1,863
    1,059
    490
    Oct 22, 2020
    Male
    9:33 PM
    Nightz
    I/L Arch Mage
    200
    Funk & Pasta
    Moderator Post
    Could also just wash to 6k+ hp by 200 and your pot cost would be a lot less
    [​IMG]
     
  3. OP
    OP
    philip
    Offline

    philip Mixed Golem

    174
    47
    168
    Dec 11, 2018
    Male
    Denmark
    9:33 PM
    Ziggs, Annie, Aphelios
    F/P Wizard
    200
    Pasta & Funk
    True, its like only 100 ap-r for 600hp might aswell.(I am already hp washing)
     
  4. Nise
    Offline

    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

    2,059
    693
    500
    Jul 5, 2017
    Male
    Korea
    4:33 AM
    NoraONE
    Corsair
    189
    Sweetdreams
    Note: Personal opinion, which doesn't reflect staff's opinion. Btw not even an opinion, but putting this here in case anyone says it is.

    5-6 in the community's eyes seems to continue to be problematic:
    • Relative to petri/skele, 5-6 still seems to be giving too much exp
    • Layout is an issue (where safe spots are, if any)
    • Spawn positions are an issue, where it favors dual mage instead of single mage
    • Drops from the mobs are an issue
    Balancing a map means trying to harmonize all the above factors. Since you mention making it more profitable on the raw meso side, you have to be willing to "give" something from another aspect. Example mentioned from the posters would be EXP. It could be other things too like lack of safe spots, making leeching impossible.

    Unless a map is lacking on all fronts (exp, mesos, layout), it's probably hard/unlikely to convince the community & staff to buff them without "giving" anything.

    ALSO, please please please respond to people in a single post. You're using 4 posts to quote and respond to someone, which you can do in one post. It's killing me T-T
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  5. Jafel
    Offline

    Jafel Capt. Latanica

    346
    169
    278
    May 3, 2015
    Male
    9:33 PM
    KingSlime
    Outlaw
    70
    Twice
    Referencing to the community as if you're not part of it implies you're replying from staff position.

    Anyways, thanks for telling the dude to stop being such a digifart.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. whatdatoast
    Offline

    whatdatoast Windraider

    469
    122
    301
    Apr 9, 2020
    12:33 PM
    whatdatoast
    Bowman
    The map got nerfed by about 10-15% since december. It was 140m->120m duo and 100m->85m solo. If you want to read all the discussion about these nerfs, I recommend you go read the 20+ page discussion thread from that patch. But as a mage who has trained there for an absurd amount of time as well, that map is busted and needs nerfs. If you want to do a more direct comparison between maps, you need to consider EPH, meso/hr and pot costs. All of those are essentially interchangeable as 3.8 exp = 1 meso from high level leech.

    If you want a better balance of meso and eph, go to obv2 and obv4. It's around 10m meso/hr and 70-80m eph solo.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Oradious
    Offline

    Oradious Capt. Latanica

    300
    104
    278
    Aug 28, 2018
    Male
    3:33 AM
    Oradious
    F/P Arch Mage, Gunslinger, Buccaneer
    200
    Pasta
    So I/L class identity is freezing, got it

    Found the problem

    Also, aren't you the guy who used to PM me about MP washing every other week last year? All this self-masturbatory self-quoting posts is starting to make you look like a certain French-speaking player that everyone used to love in the past
     
  8. OP
    OP
    philip
    Offline

    philip Mixed Golem

    174
    47
    168
    Dec 11, 2018
    Male
    Denmark
    9:33 PM
    Ziggs, Annie, Aphelios
    F/P Wizard
    200
    Pasta & Funk
    Nice to see you are as toxic as ever Oradious and no we were just guildies in Honor
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. BananaPie
    Offline

    BananaPie Selkie Jr.

    214
    67
    210
    Dec 22, 2019
    Male
    8:33 PM
    This thread is insanely pointless.

    Changing Elquinnes and Ifrit to do whatever you want to do (Freeze/Stun) won't have any material impact on costs, and only serves to make ult spamming in 5-6 more AFK and helps those fools who use barbs save on barbs costs.

    Just look at your numbers below and how the majority of the difference between the two is arising because you're using barbs.
    The inherent problem in why your analysis is so highly flawed is because you're using Barbs. Switch over to ginsengs and you'll notice the pot cost across petris/5-6 is roughly the same. The primary trigger for a ginseng in 5-6 is whenever your MP goes below threshold as a result of your ulti spam, less so because the mobs are hitting you. And with 5-6 you cast your ultis with higher frequency than petris so naturally the pot cost will be higher there as a function of that.

    Remove barbs from your equations, replace mana bulls with ginsengs and the average difference between your shaolin test and petri test is 3,800*(460-320)=c. 500k. Viola, the differential is now c. 400k vs c. 900k by using a more effective pot. Also, 460*3,800 = c. 1.75m. Compared to using barbs I've just saved you 200-300k at 5-6 by switching everything to ginsengs.
    And again, the majority of that 500k cost is due to your higher frequency of ult spam, not because you're getting hit like no tomorrow as so you think.

    And yes I do have an arch mage that grinds at Shaolin. And in fact, I was there last night duo leeching my shad.

    Edit: If you want to make your analysis more robust in the future, keep track of how many ults you used in petri in a 1 hour span, how many you used in 5-6 in a 1 hour span and then normalise across the two scenarios.
     
    • Informative Informative x 4
    • Useful Useful x 1
  10. NOCAP
    Offline

    NOCAP Mano

    13
    11
    10
    Jan 27, 2021
    Male
    12:33 PM
    NOCAP
    Beginner
    200
    Swag
    I think there is a lot of unfair statements made about 5-6F in this thread and even in the other thread about sweeping. There are a lot of people who talk about it based on what they've heard and I think that contributes a lot to the perception of 5-6. If you go to the map it is almost perma-empty these days because of the harsh changes that have been made to the map. I do think a lot of the changes have been good to bring EPH down. For example, it is now impossible for low level mages to reach really high EPH tiers like they used to be able to which in my opinion is a good change and came about due to the new spacing of the monks.

    As a level 18x mage with high TMA if I duo with a 200 bishop my EPH is around 100-110m with echo. It is lower without echo by about 6-10%. This is with no leechers. That would mean it is a 25% increase over solo petri exp if you are able to meet a very high TMA threshold and get a 2nd mage or own a 2nd mage yourself. I personally have 1530 TMA with echo if anyone needs that as a reference.

    I do not own 2 mages, but I did see Shivering at 5-6 a few days ago and had the chance to talk to him about what the current state of 5-6 mutliclient is like. This is pretty much the information I gathered from someone who I think is very experienced with this map. Due to the lack of safe spots, it discourages multi-client leechers except for those who have were able to abuse the previous map to get 2 mages to a very high level. If you do not have 2 very high leveled mages your EPH is pretty bad. It's also very hard to get 2 mages to a high level using this map now because you can not HS both mages reliable. The top left staircase is not a 100% safe spot but it can be manageable if you are training by yourself. The issue is one of your mages (right side) will never get HS if you are a multi-client player and if you are selling leech to players who want to afk then both of your mages will not get HS as you can not use the bookshelf at a safe spot and have to place everyone at the far top left of the map which means now neither mage gets HS. The EPH if you sell leech to 3 characters for your mages is about 40-44m if you have echo, no HS, and have 1520+ TMA on both mages (this is the TMA he said he had). He said the EPH was 36-40m if he was unable to get echo. He also said if he sold leech his leechers would get between 35-45m EPH if he did not have echo and 38-50m if he did have echo.

    The changes made the map really bad for solo mage players. It is similar to petri exp if you play as a solo mage, but you have to deal with insane pot burn so I would say there are better alternatives if you are a solo mage player some of which have been mentioned in this thread (Oblivion maps).

    Overall, I think a lot of these changes that were made did nerf the map a lot and were good. I think the map is in an okay spot although a lot of people seem to think otherwise since it is always empty now.
     
    • Informative Informative x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. OP
    OP
    philip
    Offline

    philip Mixed Golem

    174
    47
    168
    Dec 11, 2018
    Male
    Denmark
    9:33 PM
    Ziggs, Annie, Aphelios
    F/P Wizard
    200
    Pasta & Funk
    Hello Nise

    I guess you can say it will be more profitable with Elquin and Ifrit changes to stun or freeze monks for the duration Elquins would normally freeze for. I like to think that 5-6F has “given” a lot during idk maybe 5-7 nerfs, where the biggest nerfs to eph has been straight exp nerfs and terrain changes that also changed exp with another 10-15%. The exp there is still some of the best in the game, but I do think its also time to make some Quality of Life changes to make the place feel better and less clunky. Also do not forget it might be one of the only places for AM where you can go and train together, which for me has been really appealing to me and given me a lot of interesting buddies. My point with this post is mainly to give 5-6F some QoL changes and bug fixes to make the place feel better after the changes in December.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. OP
    OP
    philip
    Offline

    philip Mixed Golem

    174
    47
    168
    Dec 11, 2018
    Male
    Denmark
    9:33 PM
    Ziggs, Annie, Aphelios
    F/P Wizard
    200
    Pasta & Funk
    I think they just went a bit overboard with terrain changes and they have to make the map less clunky and fix bug and QoL.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. BananaPie
    Offline

    BananaPie Selkie Jr.

    214
    67
    210
    Dec 22, 2019
    Male
    8:33 PM
    The best way to improve your profitability is to stop using barbs.

    I agree 5-6 feels clunky now, but I disagree that some strange alteration to Elquinnes and Ifrit is the way to go. Especially if the basis for it is cost reduction because I highly doubt it will lead to any material saving in pot costs unless you can mathetically prove me wrong.
     
  14. Feeed
    Offline

    Feeed Mr. Anchor

    274
    171
    256
    Aug 4, 2020
    Male
    3:33 PM
    Feeed
    Corsair
    I do agree the map feels clunky.

    I also think it sucks that the freeze changes in Shaolin hurt other classes more than they hurt mages (MMs and Sairs).

    I also think that the stairs in Shaolin seriously need more lenient platforms

    But you're out of your mind if you think "5-6 is the only place to train" and that it needs a buff. It's disproportionally the best eph map in the entire game, why in the world should it also be profitable and leechable? There are alternative leeching and money making maps; 5-6 can't be good at everything
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 2
  15. Nightz
    Online

    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

    1,863
    1,059
    490
    Oct 22, 2020
    Male
    9:33 PM
    Nightz
    I/L Arch Mage
    200
    Funk & Pasta
    Moderator Post
    Stairs in Shoalin be like
    [​IMG]
     
  16. OP
    OP
    philip
    Offline

    philip Mixed Golem

    174
    47
    168
    Dec 11, 2018
    Male
    Denmark
    9:33 PM
    Ziggs, Annie, Aphelios
    F/P Wizard
    200
    Pasta & Funk
    5-6F is good at providing exp I wouldn't call that everything. Whats wrong in asking for F/p's skills to work as they were designed for. The summon skill Elquin freezes monks, this buff will be minor and save some hp pots. Am I really "out of my mind" for suggesting our skill to work as it was designed to? Ifrit could have the same change as elquins at the map or stun for I/L to compensate Blizzard's freezing effect
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. BananaPie
    Offline

    BananaPie Selkie Jr.

    214
    67
    210
    Dec 22, 2019
    Male
    8:33 PM
    Houston, we have a problem.

    Switch to ginsengs and it won't just save you some hp pots, it will save you from using any hp pots at all. Why bother with such inefficiencies with making changes to summons when you can just change your pots. You're likely to use 2-3 ults, trigger a ginseng, and heal yourself back to full hp before even needing to consider hp potting with barbs.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Feeed
    Offline

    Feeed Mr. Anchor

    274
    171
    256
    Aug 4, 2020
    Male
    3:33 PM
    Feeed
    Corsair
    Unless you have a suggestion that keeps freeze intact but also results in increased pot cost or other nerfs to compensate, then yes.
     
  19. -ovv
    Offline

    -ovv Horntail

    2,319
    925
    500
    Feb 23, 2020
    Male
    12:33 PM
    -ovv
    Beginner
    200
    Honor
    Make Shaolin mobs skill lock or zombify like NT. :^)
     
  20. Nise
    Offline

    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

    2,059
    693
    500
    Jul 5, 2017
    Male
    Korea
    4:33 AM
    NoraONE
    Corsair
    189
    Sweetdreams
    I'll one up you, make shaolin mobs cast that EXP debuff ;)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1

Share This Page