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Shaolin 5-6F EPH data and suggestions for new changes

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by sandpickle, Dec 22, 2020.

  1. sandpickle
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    sandpickle Mushmom

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    I've made a couple posts on the official balance changes thread, but I'll post EPH data, the 5-6 rotation, and possible suggestions for changes here. Feel free to skim through all the parts as this will be pretty long.


    A quick introduction and some background.
    My main is a level 180 bishop, and about 90% of my playtime in ML has been selling leech. The other 5% of the time I spend booming my mesos, and the last 5% chatting with friends. What's always been important to me when selling leech is optimal and consistent EPH - no one likes a seller whose EPH is lower than advertised + constantly fluctuates.

    Prior to the Shaolin mob changes + removal of macro for mage ultimate skills, my level 162 Hero was getting around 73m eph solo.

    Below is the solo EPH data I gathered.
    - 58m, 57.8m, 54.7m, 58m
    - 52.8m, 52.6m, 49.7m, 52.8m (adjusted EPH for non-event).
    The new EPH data averages to around ~51.9m eph, or roughly a 30% eph decrease.

    Below is the trio EPH data I gathered.
    Level 132: 33m, 38m, 42m, 34.5m = 36.875m or 33.3m
    Level 155: 40m, 46m, 48.5m, 41.1m = 43.9m or 39.9m
    Level 162: 42m, 47m, 47.8m, 42.5m = 44.825m or 40.8m eph.

    From 150-160, my hero would receive, on average, 53-54m exp per hour. The trio eph data also shows a ~30% eph decrease.

    Below is the trio EPH data of my mages with 1200 TMA.
    Level 132: 24.4m
    Level 155: 29m
    Level 162: 30m
    It seems pretty worthless to try and sell 5-6 leech now if you can't 3 hit gold monks.

    On average, the eph has decreased by around 30%.

    An FP requires, at minimum, 1150 TMA to 3 hit silver monks, and an IL requires around 1180 TMA. These values are important because it allows both mages to stand on the top platform, having their summons kill the gold monks in around the same time the silver monks would die. This TMA threshold leads to around 35m-44m eph. Because the gold monks do not die consistently during one rotation of spells (3 casts of blizzard/meteor), the spawn of gold and silver monks begin to stagger, causing massive eph flucuations.

    An FP requires 1330 TMA to 3 hit gold monks, and an IL requires 1360 TMA to 3 hit gold monks. Once this threshold is achieved, a mage with perfect rotations can expect around 43m-56m+ eph. I hit this damage requirement at 174 on my IL, and 171 on my FP with high-tier mage gear.

    Selling 5-6 leech can seem to be effortless and brainless. and when the seller is spam casting their abilities, it is. However, this leads to inconsistent and low EPH. Sellers either take the EPH decrease or attempt one of the two different methods: running a taunt mule, or syncing the two mage macro casts, and consistently repositioning the mages.

    Once the FP/IL mages hit the TMA threshold to 3 hit gold monks, the rotation seemed pretty simple: put the FP on the bottom platform by the staircase, and IL at the top right of the map. Cast the ultimates at the same time with a macro, and continually reposition the mages to maximize the mobs hit. Rebuff after two casts, and wait a second before casting the macro again to keep the spawn consistent.
    This rotation achieves two things: a consistent EPH, and a high EPH. Though this "rotation" much fewer actions/minute than running a taunt mule OR selling skeles/petris with a sweeper, it requires more attention, as one miss-timed cast or one missed cast will cause the spawn to stagger, leading to the EPH falling.
    The synced-cast rotation helped achieve a high EPH, and it was by no means "effortless" - even though you weren't consistently using your keyboard, you had to watch the positioning of the mages and, after every cast or two, reposition the FP mages, and usually reposition the IL mage after 1 or 2 rotations. Because it's vital to cast the ultimate at the same time, and continually reposition, you have to always stay focused on the screen.


    Instead of timing the casts of the ultimates, you now have to spam cast the ability whenever you get the chance. Because there is no more macros, you have to either click between the two clients or alt+tab every second or two. This requires a lot more APM but surprisingly a little less focus. Now that you can't sync the two mages, you can just go back to spam casting. This will lead to the respawn of the monks to go crazy, leading to inconsistent EPH as shown from the trio EPH data above.

    I've sold about a few hours of 5-6 leech post-nerf. As stated above, it requires much less attention but a lot more movement/"interaction with the character". While it does require a decent amount of more effort, it doesn't require nearly the same amount of focus that the other rotation offered (pre-nerf).
    This is because, prior to the changes, only the FP mage would consistently need to be repositioned. However, now that both mages get knocked around, you just flip a coin and reposition that mage first.

    The macro is important to multi client leeching because it allows for the mages to attack in sync. Even if the freeze changes and mob jumping changes were reverted, it would be near impossible to continue the "Synced-cast rotation" as you are changing clients every couple seconds. One thing I noticed from the new changes is that, sometimes, the ultimate does not cast (most likely due to the skill being pressed early). A missed cast/miss-timed cast ruins the respawn of the monks, thus lowering eph.

    Potential changes/fixes.
    It's a little difficult to suggest different fixes/changes without knowing the reason for the nerf.

    Potential reason 1: 5-6 EPH was too high for end game leech.
    A potential fix for this is: reduce the spawn of monks on the map. This would allow sellers to keep their current rotation, effortless or not, while not destroying their hands by constantly changing clients.

    Potential reason 2: The potential to sell 2 channels of 5-6 leech.
    This one is much more difficult to fix without screwing over other sellers/people who train at Shaolin. The reason selling 2 channels of 5-6 works so effectively is for two reasons: the ability to spam cast macros which gives buyers around 35m+ eph, and buyers rushing to a leech with a low asking price.

    In my experience, buyers prioritize pricing more than eph. I've had buyers run when my price was 10m for 50m+ eph, yet when I sold leech at 9.5m for 36m+ eph, no one ever complained about the pricing.
    For example, a level 145 used to gain about 50m exp/hr once I achieved the tma threshold to 3 hit gold monks, but prior to this, a level 145 would receive about 42m exp. The Meso/EXP ratio for the former is 5/1 whereas the latter is a ratio of 4.42.

    The only potential fix that comes to mind is, keep the change where monster cannot be frozen in Shaolin. With how frequently the mages have to be repositioned, it would be impossible to sell 2 channels of leech, even with macros available. However, with this change, a sync'd rotation would become very difficult/near impossible as the IL mage is currently needed to reposition after every cast.

    ** An important thing to note about 2 channels of 5-6 is that it's really difficult to replicate - when Shivering first quit, I was planning on selling 2 channels, but it requires way too much focus & attention as well as another computer to run HS mules.

    Potential reason 3: 5-6 leeching, as is, is too effortless.
    While this is true in cases where mages spam cast their ultimates, the buyer and seller ultimately pay the price - lower eph for buyers, less income for the sellers. Yet Ulu2 is even more effortless than 5-6 leech, and yields 17m/hr, compared to the 20-25m/hr these sellers are making. If this is the reason 5-6 is being nerfed, please nerf ulu2 as well.

    Potential reason 4: ML doesn't want people to multi-client leech.
    I have no solution/potential fix for this.

    You might be wondering why someone just spent the past hour typing this up. Can't you just go to ob4? Can't you just sell petri or skele leech? This nerf doesn't change the identity of I/L mages at all, and you're just whining and overreacting XD

    Well, I made my two mages for the sole purpose of selling leech. In the past month, I power leveled both mages to 177/179 in order to 3 hit gold monks and get optimal EPH. Of course I'm bummed out that, without warning, IL's and FP's can't freeze mobs, and that macro-casting isn't possible. It feels like the couple hundred hours spent making these mages have gone to waste without any explanation, especially when the balance team didn't reach out to people who use live at 5-6 and ask for their opinions. Of course I'm a bit salty.

    A lot of people created IL mages > FP mages because of the ability for Blizzard to freeze mobs. A lot of people have memed and said "just go ob4" - that doesn't solve the issue at all of an IL's identity - and I/L's identity is so much more than "doing bonus Ice/Lightning damage". Would you ever consider a Bishop's identity to be "doing holy damage to skeles"?

    So @balanceteam, please take the time to read through at least the potential reasonings for nerfing 5-6, and maybe there can be a discussion amongst 5-6 sellers & balance staff to look into different ways of changing Shaolin.
     
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  2. NecksonBad
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    NecksonBad Slime

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    When your degree is in macroeconomics and they removed the "macro" part.

    I don't think you're whining or overacting at all, great points. We're providing suggestions to maintain the status and functions of our niche and classes. I/L not being able to freeze is a big oof. F/P feels like the superior mage now.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  3. JosephMis
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    JosephMis Slime

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    Bishop, actually. You have better leech with more exp, less pot burning and do boss runs.
    Let's just recreate our mages as bishops and play BishopLegends, c'mon!
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  4. Mers
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    Mers Slime

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    As someone that has been living in 5-6f, these changes don't "make leeching with multiple clients a little bit more difficult". It only decreases the efficiency of the leech, making 5-6f not a viable place to sell leech at.
    I have not been on this server as long as some people have, but it seems that multiclienting is discouraged, something that can't be prevented anymore. Therefore making changes that targets specific multiclienters.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
  5. porl
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    porl Mixed Golem

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    Another change that benefits the existing population that has already used 5-6 to death, that means newer players will suffer (as with the SI + Mage change)
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  6. wang8d2334
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    wang8d2334 Blue Snail

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    But farting is much more funny than HS
     
  7. whatdatoast
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    whatdatoast Windraider

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    After spending about 5 hours at 5-6 today as an IL, i would say that the EPH is definitely lower, and it's hard to hit from below on the right (in case you get knocked down) because of the jumping mobs that can get on top. The only safe spot being on the top left flag / shelf also makes it much more of an eph hit to the right side mage.

    Not having a macro also significantly hurts people who just train there, and not selling leech. I used to be able to chat pretty comfortably in between the macros, now i'm forced to either not chat or miss respawn. Pretty big QoL change, but if it stops multi-channel selling, i get it.

    So of the three changes (no macros, jumping monks, no freeze), I think just the macro change alone is enough to deter leeching. If the goal is to nerf eph by about 20-30%, then i guess that's fair.

    My biggest issue is that the stated reason for the change is to deter multi-client leeching. To my knowledge there's only 2-3 people doing this (similarly for skele + taunt). It's too big a change just to stop a handful of people making 50-60m per hour. Honestly, if some people are willing to sink 3-4b in gear and couple hundred hours into making 2 mages, just to get 10-20m more meso per hour over their peers, that's fine. It's not something most sane people would attempt.

    And I understand that staff has often nerfed things that only <1% of players abused (paly/bucc mules, event drop rates, etc). But at least these were changes that 50+ people abused. Big changes for 2-3 people is kinda a lot.
     
    • Agree Agree x 11
  8. Quinale
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    Quinale King Slime

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    Go through the logs and retroactively remove experience from previous 5-6f multiclient abusers.
     
  9. JDPJHC
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    JDPJHC Mixed Golem

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    I have no idea why ML staff continues to try to nerf the top 1% of the server population. It's like they don't want their game to have any sort of depth whatsoever.

    At this point I'm convinced they just want to close the skill gap between players that try hard and players that are lazy. It's just sad to see.

    IMO, I think the top 1% of players should just stop disclosing on the forums what they are doing to make money. It's just stupid to flex on the forums, as your method will most likely just get patched with the monthly meta-breaking balance changes.

    Personally, I'm not gonna be complaining about the I/L changes anymore. It seems like our complaints fall on deaf ears. It's probably best to just push on and hide all our mesos from the staff and community.
     
    • Agree Agree x 10
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  10. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    Tbh we can only blame ourselves for not listening to the great ALYOSHA
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
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  11. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    But then where would we get all the drama? :pepehands:
     
  12. JDPJHC
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    JDPJHC Mixed Golem

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    The staff doesnt even participate in any of the sweaty meso making opportunities we have discovered.

    They literally only go off of what is being flexed and posted in forums. They can't nerf what they don't know about.
     
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  13. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    Funny, I'd have thought that the staff keeps on engaging this kind of nerfs because they want the top 1% to top 1% harder. It's always the same kind of sweaty, smart players who come up with these kind of things anyways, but since there's no real barrier to entry but time and investment needed to exploit them, there's nothing that would stop the 99% to simply follow suit. Enter the staff, who always nerfs things as soon as the 99% are in a position to actually make use of them. The top 1% then come up with something new, exploits them, and the staff nerfs them when the rest of the game can catch up. Rinse, lather, repeat.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  14. JDPJHC
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    JDPJHC Mixed Golem

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    Theres nothing stopping the 99% except the monthly balance changes kekW.

    And I would agree, it just allows us to 1% even harder, as we're the only ones crazy enough to find new and interesting ways to be in the 1%. But now, we arent allowed to share our secrets with the rest of the community.
     
  15. Pundit
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    Pundit Pink Teddy

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  16. jesscapades
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    jesscapades Pac Pinky

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    I think this is a good description and unfortunately it makes me pretty sad. I don't like all this conflict between players and staff, but I think it's to be expected with how frequent and impactful the balance changes are. I've never seen a game where the devs are constantly changing major game mechanics so that the people who love the game and spend the most time playing it--the "top 1%", and in some cases the entire population--are getting nerfed and frustrated every patch.
     
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  17. yogurtseller
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    yogurtseller Mixed Golem

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    I like seeing top 1% strats and I'm all for it, but not when it starts to interfere with regular players.

    It only takes 2 multichannel sellers selling simultaneously to occupy 50% of the available 5-6F channels. For such a heavily contested map, staff probably would've caught on eventually. On the other hand, things such as DEX buccs, hammer mules, and taunt mules, do not infringe on the casual player base [and probably would've lasted a lot longer if mouths were kept shut].
     
  18. JDPJHC
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    JDPJHC Mixed Golem

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    So if a person were to do multichannel GS2, would staff then have to nerf GS2?
     
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  19. OP
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    sandpickle
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    sandpickle Mushmom

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    People keep talking about multichannel leech selling at 5-6, but who else has done it besides Shivering? He's sold 40 hours in the past 2.5 months of 2 channels, usually off peak times.
    And I don't know how often you go to 5-6, but there's always a bishop or a mage that can't 2 hit gold monks soloing a map. I personally think that's more frustrating than one person selling 2 channel leech.
     
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  20. yogurtseller
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    yogurtseller Mixed Golem

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    To be clear, I don't agree with the recent map changes because it was overkill and harmed many regular players.

    If a person were to multichannel GS2, I think it makes more sense to make multichanneling harder instead of nerfing the map, which was accomplished with removal of 3x casting macros.
     
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