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Shaolin 5-6F EPH data and suggestions for new changes

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by sandpickle, Dec 22, 2020.

  1. OP
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    sandpickle Mushmom

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    I'm a "covid" player, so I don't really know how ML balancing usually goes. I understand why balance notes are posted during the maintenance, but what's frustrating is that things like Deep Ludi teleport changes get their own discussion post weeks in advanced while these changes just seem to happen out of the blue.
    I know that 5-6 changes were discussed beforehand, as I heard that they were thinking of making monks freeze resistant over a month ago, but why were these changes not discussed on forums or with people that the changes would directly impact? I know it'd be more work + more chaotic to discuss balance changes beforehand, but you know what's also a ton of work? Power leveling an SI mule and two arch mages just to have them nerfed/become worthless when the new balance updates are released.
     
  2. JDPJHC
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    JDPJHC Mixed Golem

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    Yeah I know you don't agree. I was just pointing out the flaw in this whole situation and how it can create a dangerous precedent of getting maps nerfed.:(
     
    • Like Like x 3
  3. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    IMO, Shivering's multichannel leech was just a scapegoat for the bigger decision to nerf Shaolin over all. People will always complain whenever any optimized strategy that becomes normalized is then nerfed, when in reality, holistically, it is extremely imbalanced. Shaolin (and consequentially Shaolin leech) was above and beyond all other content in the game for exp gain via training/leech. Now that it is nerfed, other content received an indirect 'buff' by lowering the ceiling and have become a bit more viable.

    A couple of questions:
    • Was it better for balance team to have nerfed Shaolin content, or should they have buffed all other content to bring them up to speed with Shaolin?
    • Was Shaolin content comparatively too easy for its place as end-game content? Other end-game content like ToT or NT are not comparatively 'viable' because of the added nuisance or difficulty. Is this not normal, or should Shaolin's afk-safe-spot, motionless, multichannel leeching be considered the standard of difficulty for end-game content in this game?
    • Will these changes help the server as a whole?
    Just my thoughts.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
  4. OP
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    sandpickle Mushmom

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    While I agree that Shaolin's exp rates were insanely high, there were so many different ways to fix these changes, such as reducing the spawn.

    What was so bad about multi client leeching? It takes a lot of effort to not only create the mages, but also control them. It is so much easier to make an AM and sell petri + sweep or make a Bishop and sell skele leech than it is to create two high level mages w/ similar gear and sell 5-6 leech.

    *added note about new rotation into main thread
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    The main problem with multiclient leeching is that it takes up more limited maps. For example, a shoalin map fits 2 normal non multiclienting players, 1 dual-clienting player, and only 0.5 quad clienting player(s). There is no issue with multiclient leeching if the map isn't hotly contested, but if its a contested map, multiclienters make it harder for everyone to find maps.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  6. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    This leads me toward the thought that it isnt 5-6 multiclient leech that is the issue, but multiclient leech as a whole. This only goes on at 5-6 specifically because it's the best option for its feasibility between difficulty and availability. If 5-6 didnt exist, I'd wager this same topic would come up for multichannel ulu2 (and still could, if someone can secure enough maps).
     
  7. OP
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    sandpickle Mushmom

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    Yea, this makes a lot of sense. The only issue with multi client leeching at ulu2 is that most of the money from ulu2 comes from looting. It's just not feasible to have consistent EPH on both mages while sweeping both maps.
     
  8. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    "Horrible EPH" that is still 2x (topping out at 2.5x) the optimized value of Skele leech. For only a 17 level difference. IMO, Shaolin should have been considered level 160+ content if it were to have remained the same.

    I'd argue more specifically that this was a block for multiclient leech on the same computer. It was fairly easy to just click between multiple clients casting macro ults and repositioning them every respawn, rebuffing, sweeping/taunting in between the entire macro duration.
    I would reckon things like ULU2 are impossible to multiclient on the same computer as the travel between the two cast points must be done simultaneously and would become inefficient/impossible on two clients. Of course, multicomputer set-ups would bypass this limitation, as it'd be fairly easy to simultaneously cast ult and travel on two computers/keyboards. I don't think that there is a way to limit multi-computer multiclienting at the moment - at least without inadvertently disabling other players as well.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  9. Shivering
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    Shivering Wolfspider

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    Let me try to hit all of these points out of the park with the use of some very simple, easy to follow logic.



    According to Nise's post the only reason these changes happened, and I quote, are "The reasoning behind these changes is due to the massive usage of them when it comes to multiclienting. People would put 3 ultimates in a skill macro which makes multiclient leeching much easier, and almost effortless to do. While we are known to have the reputation of being LeechStory, this will make leeching with multiple clients a little bit more difficult to do for those on multiple machines." So looking at this direct commentary from staff, it seems like the only reason these changes were implemented was to prevent people from utilizing multiple clients to sell leech. It seems like they have no concern about the exp that Shaolin mobs are giving as apparently they have been giving the same EXP for more than 2 years now, but now we have multiple players saying that's the reason for the nerf. It's not and you are just expressing your own personal opinion why you thought shaolin should have been nerfed; this is just contributing to the spread of misinformation. Staff has not in the past or ever stated any concerns about the EXP attainable from Shaolin.


    Personally, I do think the EXP attainable from Shaolin is high, but again, GMs have never stated this so it is pointless to bring this into arguments at this time.


    The comment about multi-channel leech while afk-safe-spotting and motionless is untrue as well unfortunately. I understand everyone wants to state their opinion and feel like they are contributing to the discussion, but it's getting out of hand the length people are willing to go to further their own points by just making up facts. Multi-channel leech at shaolin is anything but afk and I encourage you to go try it or at least spend some time watching someone doing it before making such bold claims. Sometimes if you do not understand something it is best to ask questions instead of stating opinions like facts. “Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to speak and to remove all doubt.” I think that applies to this situation here.



    This is an interesting take, but a misinformed one unfortunately. I can't blame you since most people don't have actual experience in shaolin, but just parrot things they see from other people who comment who also have no experience. The amount of misinformation on the forums has been running rampant.

    Inefficient 5-6 is nowhere close to 2x skele leech. It's more like 1.35-1.45x which is quite significant from 2x. The only time you're gonna get 2x skele EPH at shaolin is if when you have impeccable attention to detail and min/max every single spawn rotation; that is the only way. Ulu2 is not impossible to multi-client; I've already tried it and been able to do it. It's even easier to multi-client if you have 4 mages as you don't have to move at all besides on sweepers and can rake in an easy 20m per hour.



    If you want to offset # of maps available the play would be to add more channels, or if Kimmy is still concerned about the server appearing dead due to an excess of channels we can just add dungeons to the 5-6 maps. You don't need to nerf an entire class and deviate from how the game used to be, which staff like to use to argue in their favor when it is convenient to do so (see joot's post about jumping monks in balance thread), for no reason. It doesn't make sense for COVID to multiply your player base by 4x and to increase the channel count by 1.25x. Obviously now that we are 9 months into COVID and shaolin is packed as hell due to it being THE end-game training map for all mages who want to grind for themselves as well as for mages who wish to leech their attackers on a server where HP washing is mandatory, channels are packed and it's hard to get one.


    As for my personal impact on the use of channels, like sandpickle said I've sold <40 hours of leech on 2 channels over a period of 2.5 months and I frequently sell leech during off-peak hours where there are multiple free channels. Furthermore, I have never sold for more than 2 hours in a session so the time-frame I am utilizing maps is very minimal.

    Additionally, I encourage anyone, including the balance team (sad that this is something that has to be said and is not a given), to go try to control 4 mages across 2 channels. Maybe once you try it out you can see that not only is the actual leech very hard to replicate due to not only the need to have above average mechanical ability and attention span/ability to multi-task due to the need to manage positioning on 4 mages as well as a multitude of different buffs ranging from booster, meditate/wizard/coke pills, ifrit/elquines, magic guard, MW20, as well as HSing leechers (some of these are very short cooldowns so keeping it up on 4 characters while managing the macros and positioning is a lot to do at one time), but you are further held back by your need for gear, by the need for MW20, as well as the time investment of actually leveling mages to a respectable level to get to a TMA that allows you to even sell 5-6F leech.

    In conclusion, the nerfs are not a reaction appropriate for the situation at hand; when you had dex buccs being abused for >1 year by everyone who ran HT, yeah I get the nerf, but when you look at 1 person's meso journal that has been out for 2.5 months and no one else is replicating the methods maybe we should ask ourselves why instead of jumping the gun and handing out 3 nerfs in 1 patch.

    Last point is all of these nerfs don’t really do anything to the ability to sell multi-client leech as you can still do it; you also can simply bypass the entire nerf by leveling 2 crusaders to level 125 and standing on top of your mage and using shout. It's really that easy, and you already know that if someone is willing to level 2-4 mages it's just a week or two before this revolutionary shout strategy takes hold. So basically you gutted gameplay experience for tons of I/L mages for something that can very easily be bypassed by any “1% player” by putting in a bit of time to make another mule. This is something that could very easily have been pointed out if you talked to the current set of 5-6F leechers who are multiclienting.

    In the future I hope staff becomes more informed on a topic before making such rash and brutal changes to the overall gameplay experience. Yes, we get that you are understaffed and overworked, but not even trying to accrue information before you nerf something is just absurd. You can not hope to make meaningful gameplay updates without first becoming fully informed about what you are trying to nerf. If you need help, it is your job as someone who is a part of staff, to come and ask for it; there are a lot of people here, myself included, who are more than happy to have any type of open dialogue. This ideology of nerf first, ask questions later is something I hope you reconsider in the future.
     
    • Informative Informative x 7
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Huiae
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    I'm happy that I had enough potential to do exactly same with shivering guy but didn't try it since it's against my fun......

    Still I think he was genius to come up with that idea, and much more heavily, made it real (this is the point. making paperplan and making it real is completely different matter). but feeling weird also for shivering didn't think it's way too much compared with others and just enjoyed his special position.

    Actually, I made a meme meta in bossing with my ability while shivering bloomed his potential in 5-6. (I won't tell in detail. do boss with me if you want to know wth that is). I pretty sure it's almost same (or, even more effort) amount of effort with his, but still feeling weird for breaking game like this and won't cry if it gets nerfed. since I think it's too much. yes, It's area of cheating. (but I doubt how staffs can nerf my meme project. If they find proper way to snipe me but doesn't affect on others, I'd even praise them.)

    Let's admit. multiclienting 4, or even more (you know, It's possible to dominate more than 2+ channels if you have enough ILs and 3-ult macro) and dominating whole map for multiple channels, went too much. I'm down on this nerf.



    still think making shaolin mobs are immune for freeze is way too much. I think, blocking ult macro was enough. immune to freeze made FP superior than IL for kinda every parts in shaolin, this went too much also. Freezing gets effect only when you can't oneshot mobs with ulu2, and actually, shaolin is only map can't be oneshotted. I'm even down for nerf meteor to do same dmg with blizz. (I have both FP and IL)

    I saw staff teams are open for further change. Just personal hope, let shaolin mob can be freeze/paralyzed but no 3-ult macro. blocking 3-ult macro is enough nerf for multiclienters exist for now and will come up furthermore. No need to kill ILs characteristics.
    (and with my all serious, save MMs and SAIRs in 7F. They're innocent from this multiclienting-triggered nerf.)

    They will find a way which is proper, as we try and do always, and they did, for whole history of ML.
     
  11. Shivering
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    Shivering Wolfspider

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    I wanted to bump this in the hopes we can get a window into what staff thinks about the changes they have made as well as a potential response to the concerns/comments that were raised in this thread.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    Experience gain from shaolin mobs were nerfed at least twice as far as I know; once was just after it was released (I wasn't a player at that time so I'm not sure about the details), and another earlier this year that was mostly overshadowed because it was also the same patch that removed mannequin autoaggro
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  13. Shivering
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    Shivering Wolfspider

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    I was not aware of these changes so thanks for bringing it up. I’d argue if the goal is to nerf the exp the monks provide these changes were not the right approach for a lot of the reasons I outlined above.

    I think sometimes the simple answer is the way to go. If you want to nerf exp of shaolin just directly reduce the exp each monster gives.

    I’m still hesitant to say that reducing exp was one of the goals of this update as it was not mentioned in the balance notes by Nise.
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  14. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    Bro the goal of these changes was not to reduce exp, it was to nerf multiclient leech at this map. And to that end I would say that the changes were very effective.
     
  15. Shivering
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    Shivering Wolfspider

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    I’d say they were not. I spoke to several multi-client leechers and the numbers have definitely gone up form pickle’s initial findings as people have gotten more and more accustomed to the changes. Personally, the EPH hit for me after the changes are <10%.
     
  16. OP
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    sandpickle Mushmom

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    Is this taking into account Christmas bonus exp? And from @epm 3 tests or longer interval tests?
    And from my experience, the people that this nerf has hurt are people who ran bishops & people who didn't have mages capable of 3 hitting gold monks as well as buyers. I'm pretty sure sellers can still charge 9-11m/hr
     
  17. Shivering
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    Shivering Wolfspider

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    It was an @epm3 and it did account for Christmas bonus. Prior to the patch when I controlled 4 mages I was getting 110m EPH on mage when I ran EPM3. This resulted in a buyers EPH range of 35-45M for me, so accounting for the difference now we're looking at a range of 32-41M, although I am aware there are multi-client leechers selling advertising ranges of 35-48M still, so obviously I have room to improve still. Here is an SS of my mages EXP now.

    https://gyazo.com/cc1100bf28282bb74e7daaa0395c9860

    This is without HS. If you account for HS the equivalent EXP is 112m. This is the equivalent of 102m if there was no event. 8m EPH nerf; this is with no shout mules and I myself have spent <30 minutes at shaolin post-nerf so I'm sure with more practice my EPH can get a bit better.

    Since taunt was nerfed in this same patch and since skeles is the threshold for chargeable rates for mages and the meso making potential and the EPH here also dropped by a bit more than 10% in essence these changes will do nothing to discourage multi-client leechers, in my opinion, as the meso/hour has not changed at all.
     
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  18. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    Stream quad client shoalin leech with your suave voice please!
     
  19. whatdatoast
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    I just hit the 3h threshold this event, so not sure how to compare with prior. I'm getting about 90-100m eph solo on my mage, with about 40-45m eph on my single leecher. With a partner (who can also 3h) and no leechers, I was getting about 120m eph. These are all @epm10s, the huge variance comes from whether you get knocked down, since the golds now jump, you can't hit them from bottom.

    Did this map get much much better for solo'ing? i can't tell if it's the jumping movement that lets them bunch up more, or if it's because I can't freeze anymore. Regardless, solo'ing feels so good, I'd rather not even find a partner to duo, which kinda adds to map scarcity.
     
  20. Shivering
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    I actually had the same observation when I was soloing a map in order to get a recording for the pet loot bug. It seems like the mix of the mobs being a lot more mobile and the ability to jump has contributed to soloing the map actually becoming a lot more viable even if you cannot 2 hit.

    As far as not being able to hit from the bottom, you can but you need to pay a lot more attention. If you want to stay at the bottom you want to make sure you get a cast off immediately after respawn. This makes it so you will tag all the mobs at the top and aggro them to you. Once they are aggro’d to your char at the bottom I believe they will stop jumping.
     
    • Informative Informative x 2

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