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Accepted [Community Discussion] Merchant Item Bundles

Discussion in 'Accepted' started by Kimmy, Mar 8, 2022.

Do you consider the bundling option in Hired Merchants / Permits to be useful?

Poll closed Mar 15, 2022.
  1. Not really.

    83 vote(s)
    85.6%
  2. Yeah, it can he useful (do you mind commenting for what when voting this?)

    14 vote(s)
    14.4%
  1. Kimmy
    Offline

    Kimmy Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

    10,965
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    Sep 9, 2014
    The Netherlands
    1:48 PM
    Moderator Post
    When it comes to scamming, MapleLegends have always been quite strict. For example, we've added additional warnings when obtaining a legendary item for the first time to first do your research before accepting offers. This was added in the hope for newer users to not get baited from low sales on their valuable items. This is technically not scamming, but it's still something I personally discourage, which is why we try to prevent it from happening as much as possible.

    When it comes to merchant types of scams, we've quickly put a halt to what is called "Bundle Scamming" a few years ago. This is done by putting multiple of the same item, but sneakily between one item put a different type or bundle amount. This was infamously done in another populated server as well, and before it started to get heat here was immediately stopped and became a punishable act. Now it appears once or twice a year and will be stopped immediately once spotted

    Recently, a new feedback thread has popped up. This topic came to light because we've received a few reports about users that again tried baiting users who were not paying attention to pay way more mesos than they actually wanted to by using the bundle item feature.

    Unlike bundle scamming, where the action is to put "sneakily" one item so the person not paying attention falls for the wrong one, this is an act where consistent bundles get used for users not paying attention.

    When this started to happen, the staff was looking for an opinion on what should be done, where I personally said that this can't be made punishable because all the items are exactly the same in the merchant, and we can't judge "scams" based on prices alone, because that would mean that 1) We give official prices which we have never done and 2) It becomes a major can of worms what is considered a "overprice" and what is not.

    The community however understandably wasn't fully pleased with this result, since it gives room for users to intentionally bait users, thus the feedback thread was put up.

    We've re-discussed the problem behind the scenes and discussed together if there's any point of having "item bundles" existing at all since that's where the major problem here right now comes from.

    Removing item bundles would resolve the problem, and also solves the problem of us unable to give "official" prices. However, the issue is that we don't know 100% if item bundles can be missed or if they are used for other useful purposes.

    Some people already bought this up on the feedback link, but I want a more official discussion about this possibility, in case there are things they missed, or we missed.

    Official proposal: Would there be a serious problem if the item bundle option will be completely removed from MapleLegends to prevent or lessen the act of malicious users sneakily putting overpriced items in order to punish users that were not paying much attention, or are item bundles having other purposes that should remain intact with this feature?

    Please do not expect action regarding this to be taken by this patch, but we wanted an official discussion before even considering looking into this feature or problem.

    Thank you!
     
    • Like Like x 6
    • Great Work Great Work x 5
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Notorious
    Offline

    Notorious Slime

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    Apr 10, 2021
    Male
    7:48 AM
    Galbatorix, Balake
    Buccaneer
    189
    Chroma, Funk
    I think it's a good idea to remove item bundles. After spending 114m on 300 power elixirs I've now learned my lesson the hard way, but others shouldn't have to go through what I did. If what happened to me happened to a new player, I think many would have just quit ML right then and there. Thank you to the GM's for trying to address this. And a note to those who abuse TOS loopholes to steal people's money, y u try to ruin our mushroom game? :/
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Friendly Friendly x 3
  3. Nickolas
    Offline

    Nickolas Slime

    22
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    Mar 1, 2022
    Male
    IL
    6:48 AM
    DMOC
    Cleric
    94
    FUNK
    I clicked teh wrong button sorry
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. FCOArlo
    Offline

    FCOArlo Master Chronos

    98
    58
    116
    Apr 25, 2020
    USA
    7:48 AM
    Wyman | Salladhor
    Dark Knight
    200
    Katsu
    I think bundles are redundant. If you wanna buy 100 or a full stack, you can type out. Typing it out also makes you confirm that's how many you actually want to buy.
     
    • Agree Agree x 8
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  5. Chris
    Offline

    Chris Zakum Retired Staff

    1,715
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    Jan 18, 2016
    Maple Island
    7:48 AM
    Christopher
    Islander
    Southperry
    I don’t think I’ve ever purchased something in a bundle nor sold anything in a bundle.
     
    • Agree Agree x 9
    • Useful Useful x 1
  6. imTinii
    Offline

    imTinii Slime

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    Jan 30, 2021
    Female
    1:48 PM
    imTinii
    Buccaneer
    200
    none
    Personally, I have been using the bundle sales a lot lately to get rid of stuff i have in big amounts. It allows me to sell stacks of my things for cheaper than 1x10 would cost without it affecting everyone elses price. If i was to put 10x1 no bundle but same price, it would just become a battle of undercutting. How would it affect me if I wasnt allowed to sell in bundles, I couldnt say, but I really enjoy bundle sales thats all :)
     
    • Agree x 8
    • Like x 1
    • Disagree x 1
    • Great Work x 1
    • Informative x 1
    • Friendly x 1
    • Useful x 1
  7. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    The practice of undercutting and the normalization of using Owls to navigate the FM has really made wholesaling in an oscillating market irrelevant. If your items are already at the lowest per-unit price, they have effectively undercut the market and will be bought out until someone else undercuts you. Then, there is no reason people should be buying your now more expensive and bundled product so long as there are others out there that are cheaper by unit.

    You could say wholesaling is a means to circumvent the perpetual practice of undercutting by capturing a larger share of the market at once and leaving only crumbs to the next wave of undercutters.

    However, most people aren't using bundles properly anyways.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  8. imTinii
    Offline

    imTinii Slime

    23
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    Jan 30, 2021
    Female
    1:48 PM
    imTinii
    Buccaneer
    200
    none
    Maybe I didnt have to mention undercut and so at all, I really only wanted to say its a feauture I use a lot and really enjoy, and I think its sad we need to take it away from everyone instead of punishing the actual abusers.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  9. iPippy
    Offline

    iPippy Nightshadow

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    7:48 AM
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    There is a time and place for bundles, I've used them and even bought from them before. But if the bundle isn't the right size, it makes it harder on both the buyer and seller. Personally, bundles are only useful when the seller does not wish to part with only half the stack (usually due to the item being significantly more difficult to sell at low quantities). Take an item like Gold Teeth (always used in quantities of 30). It's a perfect item to sell in a 30 bundle, and if a seller only has a 1 or 2 teeth because somebody else decided to only buy 28, it becomes more of a hassle to find that shop than another shop with enough teeth, even if it isn't the cheapest deal. Of course that is reversible too, and buyers may not always wish to buy a 30 stack, and seller risks losing that portion of a sale. Ultimately, I think bundles are neat, but if they are viewed as more harmful than helpful, the server should survive just fine without.

    The bigger questions in my opinion are how much "buyer protection" is needed, and how much is needed to deem "scamming intent". In the above power elixir event, I actually do not believe the buyer is entitled to money back in the same way that a seller who underprices an item is not entitled to the money back (though some people do return it). It falls onto both buyers and sellers to make sure they read the numbers of items listed/bought properly; it is impossible to make enough safeguards to completely remove this. So I ask, what harm does enabling bundles actually cause? Have we finally found the rare "perfect storm" of a user listing suspiciously overpriced goods by a 100x factor and a buyer too careless to notice? Or does this happen more often, except this instance the user was more vocal about it? I don't know the answers to those, but I fear the bundle talk is a cover-up to a bigger issue of how to call out obvious scam attempts.

    The current market is far too ripe for these types of scams as well as others. And a stance fully in the camp of "sellers can list for whatever they want" is only going to invite future scammed user and spark more controversy once it happens. Nobody seemed to have an issue (vocally at least) with single items listed at 100x until somebody took the bait. And understandably so, as the onus falls on the buyer to confirm the purchase (there *is* a confirmation window after all). My personal issue is that the take-home lesson to would-be scammers and potential chaos lovers is to simply not list the "scam items" next to any other items. I am free to list my power elixirs at 10x or 100x the price to hope to catch somebody, or list my 5 def cape at a 5 att cape prices, or list helmet def at helmet dex prices, or list weapon acc at weapon att prices (Still looking for availability of scroll of secrets locked Knuckle acc 30 tho btw). The point here is that we need to call these what they are: Maplelegends version of phishing scams. People do list their def capes as "haha funny meme item", but if one actually sold and the user complained, would we not be in the exact same situation as right now? If intent to deceive is not certain, at least claim that you'll hand out a warning to be careful about suspicious looking prices so that abiding users can adjust, and phishers can be justifiably booted.

    Tl;dr Bundles arent pivotal in the grand scheme, but are bundles truly the problem here?

    S>10 def pgc cheap
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Like Like x 4
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1
  10. Lv6Slime
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    Lv6Slime Red Snail

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    Jan 25, 2021
    Male
    6:48 AM
    Slimee, Punch, Meso, Attack
    Cleric
    68
    Only real use I have done personally with bundling in shops would be for quest/event items. Really helps to regulate what is being sold so seller isn't left over with extra stock.

    It always annoyed me when trying to get 30 zombies golden tooth and finding a shop that had like 20 only.

    But I can also see how people can take advantage and scam using it so I would be okay with having it removed to try and help prevent others from having a negative experience.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  11. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Zakum

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    8:48 AM
    ItzLeo
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    Favela
    the only reason that its usefull is when u wanna sell with disconunt (1 item to 3m, 2 for 5) or quest item like some1 say above
     
  12. ryanlights
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    ryanlights Windraider

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    7:48 AM
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    Prestigious
    Remove the bundle option.
    Single items only.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  13. Estrahl
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    Estrahl Mr. Anchor

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    Feb 1, 2021
    Orbis
    4:48 AM
    Kiyomasa, kage, miko, zoku, etc
    Dragon Knight, Cleric, Bowman, Bandit
    90
    Perion
    I think if bundles were limited to etc only, where its only true argument lies, I think we'd be fine.

    If a seller wants to sell at a discount they should just sell at a discount, or stand at the entrance and declare their prices(or smega). I think the argument is pretty weak to keep it in, especially when buyers can buy multiple by their choice. This isn't Costco, we're not all buying ws and cs in bulk at discount prices, we just buy what we need/can afford and leave.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  14. UnknownCode
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    UnknownCode Nightshadow

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    4:48 AM
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    I don't think bundles aren't really an issue its how people set their shops, If bundles were separated in its own tab people would be able to skim through without worrying about getting 'scammed'.

    The problem lies when sellers are 'abusing' placements with bundles and singles in hopes that buyers would get tricked into what be a "bundle" which really isn't, because personally the color text is really hard to read unless I'm squinting (on my mac) or put my color vibrance (for windows) all the way up.

    (Just quoting your post for better explanation, to what I'm trying to mention.)

    Bundles are very important to MapleStory and in any game really, so removing them entirely wouldn't help at all, it would just make it a nuisance.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Narel
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    Narel Red Snail

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    Feb 1, 2022
    6:48 AM
    Narelion
    F/P Arch Mage
    175
    Perion
    I don't personally use the feature, but yea, this. I know sometimes it's a case of this-is-why-we-can't-have-nice-things but it does feel sour to disable a game feature due to skeezeballs preying on people who don't carefully read each purchase.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. xiaoyaoz
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    xiaoyaoz Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    Jul 17, 2020
    Male
    12:48 PM
    Is it just me or is it weird that when I'm buying a bundle of items, I have to set how many individual items instead of how many bundle I want to buy?
    To clarify:
    Someone selling 100 PE for 400k, upon purchase, I have to type in 100 in order to complete the transaction.
    For me, I thought it would just make sense to type 1 since it is selling in a bundle with the stated price as the bundle.

    Another use case:
    If someone is selling 90 gold teeth with bundles of 30, then someone that wants to buy 3 bundles should just type 3 instead of 90 right?

    It's just weird to me when you're in the bundle concept but still have to input individual amounts :confused:
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Like Like x 2
  17. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    The problem actually isn't bundled items at all - the problem is the unbundled items that are wedged amongst bundled items at a bundled price.
    IMO, this should be a zero tolerance policy because using item bundling shows intent to cautiously price your items, so mispricing them can only really mean one thing.

    Like Xiao has mentioned, purchasing a bundle should be by the bundle - you only buy one bundle of something at that price. This would eliminate the accidental purchase of 100 of a non-bundled item at a bundle price.
     
  18. ryanlights
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    ryanlights Windraider

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    bump. hoping to see removal of bundles in the next update.
     
  19. FCOArlo
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    FCOArlo Master Chronos

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    Apr 25, 2020
    USA
    7:48 AM
    Wyman | Salladhor
    Dark Knight
    200
    Katsu

    This isnt what they mean by bundles. They mean the ability to sell items in a specific quantity. so if you have 100 scrolls and put it so you could only buy the entire stack of 100 instead of just 1.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. ryanlights
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    ryanlights Windraider

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    Jan 2, 2021
    Male
    Toronto, Canada
    7:48 AM
    Dark Knight, Bowmaster
    200
    Prestigious
    which is irrelevant anyways because it prompts you, asking how many you'd like to purchase anyways before submitting the transaction lol

    upload_2022-7-28_22-46-31.png
     

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