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Information [Alpha Test] Challenges System - HP Wash Alternative

Discussion in 'Update Notes' started by xiaoyaoz, Oct 9, 2022.

  1. xiaoyaoz
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    xiaoyaoz Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    Hello everyone!

    [Beta Test] thread here

    Let's talk about HP washing, a mechanic (be it originally intended or not) that's arguably one of the most controversial aspects of the game.

    Indeed, it carries its fair share of problems:
    1. It requires lots of technical knowledge, which should be researched into from the start of the character lifetime (pumping INT to gain excess MP, that can then be converted into HP);
    2. It cripples the character for a significant portion of its leveling lifetime, via unnatural INT addition;
    3. It requires a tremendous amount of vote cash, which forces a time gating on the progress, with daily voting.

    Aside from the negative aspects, washing brings a few benefits to the server, which can't be ignored:
    1. It creates an extra layer of depth to the game, with long-term planning, long-term goals which may contribute to player retention;
    2. It promotes an "artificial" balance on classes, as some may be more "beginner-friendly" due to requiring little to no HP washing investment;
    3. Voting for HP washing supports the exposure of MapleLegends.

    Having dangerous end-game content, in terms of damage, is always gonna be something we want to work with; HP progression and character survivability is something we believe to be a core part of the game.

    As mentioned in the 2022 roadmap, MapleLegends has been looking into ways to rework this progression, to turn it into something more ingrained in the game fantasy.

    We mentioned a possible route being a Defense formula rework; but for now, we will focus on the raw HP aspect. Naturally, this is not expected to be our only change to the system, we will be gathering feedback and deciding how to proceed further based on that.

    So, HP gain system. There are plenty of factors that need to be considered in dealing with a change to it; with a 7 years old server, a complete fundamental revamp (removal of HP washing) is simply impossible, without invalidating the efforts and dedication put by our community into tailoring their characters for our content.
    Washing however also twists the game balance in ways that are hard to account for, such as supposedly-fragile classes able to withstand touch damage from endgame bosses.

    After lengthy discussions and feedback reading, our aim became to offer a completely alternative route.
    The old HP washing system will still be in place, it will be treated as the "hardcore" way to enable oneself to gain an edge in survivability, at the cost of lengthy waits and painful int-washing.

    In addition to that, we now introduce the Challenges system, an alternative way to gain HP.

    Challenges are a way to permanently obtain extra HP by completing specific game tasks. Think of it as a set of small quests, custom-tailored for each class and level threshold, with the reward being extra survivability, balanced for your level bracket.


    「 Challenges System 」

    The Challenges system will work as follows:
    • At level 100, a player will be introduced to the system. They will be offered their first set of challenges, based on their class.
    • Challenge progression will automatically start once the challenges are presented.
      • For example, if the challenge is to "kill 5 Snails", farming Snails after receiving the challenges will automatically count.
    • Every 10 levels, until level 180 inclusive is reached, a new set of Challenges will be available. Each set will be more difficult to clear.
      • These new Challenge sets can be unlocked only after having fully cleared all the previous sets.
    • Upon completing a Challenge, the player can redeem their prize.
      • This can be done at any time and level.

    「 Eligibility 」

    The base HP increase prize can only be redeemed if:
    • The player has no AP invested in their HP/MP pool;
      • If they have any, they can take them out via AP Resets in order to be eligible.
    • AND their HP is under a certain threshold
      • The formula we used to calculate the HP eligibility is actually a bit more complicated than this, as it projects your HP to the next threshold level to see if you are eligible.

    「 Rewards System 」

    The first time the player tries to redeem the prize from a Challenge, they will be presented with a choice:
    • OPTION 1: Base HP is permanently increased to the specified amount below, and the character will be unable to spend ability points into HP/MP*
      • This action is irreversible.
      • Regular HP washing will no longer be possible.
    • OPTION 2: Keep their HP/MP pool unlocked. Doing so will not grant any base HP increase upon completion, but some other minor prizes that are yet to be decided.
    *Please note that regular HP increase via level-up will still be obtained, and HP equipment can still be worn.

    Now that we've given a rough description of the mechanics, let's discuss the main benefit.

    Each HP Challenge set will grant the right amount of HP to reach a specific threshold.
    There are 9 thresholds, every 10 levels, from level 100 to level 180.

    HP Thresholds (updated for Anniversary 2023)

    LevelsMagesWarriorsBuccShadOthersNote
    1001,5207,0005,6003,2003,200-
    1101,7208,4506,5003,7003,950-
    1201,93010,2007,5504,3004,800-
    1302,15012,2508,7505,0005,750CWKPQ w/o HB
    1402,38014,60010,1005,8006,800Zakum w/o HB
    1502,62017,25011,6006,7007,950 HT w/ HB
    1602,87020,20013,2507,7009,200-
    1703,13023,45015,0508,80010,550HT w/o HB
    1803,40027,00017,00010,00012,000PB w/ HB


    LevelsMagesWarriorsBuccShadOthersNote
    1001,5207,0005,6003,2003,200-
    1101,7208,3506,7503,7003,950-
    1201,9309,8508,0504,3004,800-
    1302,15011,5009,5005,0005,750CWKPQ w/o HB
    1402,38013,30011,1005,8006,800Zakum w/o HB
    1502,62015,25012,8506,7007,950 HT w/ HB
    1602,87017,35014,7507,7009,200-
    1703,13019,60016,8008,80010,550HT w/o HB
    1803,40022,00019,00010,00012,000PB w/ HB
    The thresholds represent the HP that the character is guaranteed to have at that level by completing all Challenges of the respective set.
    On the rightmost column of the table we have written a few noteworthy HP requirements that are overcome with this new system.

    To put it simply, the HP Challenges system aims to trade the freedom and comfort to pick your preferred HP amount at your preferred level, in favor of a HP washing-free journey that still guarantees content participation.

    Because such a system is extremely delicate and irreversible, this first alpha release only features Cassandra Rosa in Lith Harbour giving you a quick rundown of your possible HP gains via Challenges. Challenges are not currently live. The first set of challenges are now in beta test! More details here.

    By talking with Cassandra Rosa, you can get an idea of how much HP you would obtain from the Challenges, if you were to start them at your current level with your current HP amount.

    Please feel free to give us any feedback you may have about our proposed system!

    「 Q&A 」
    1. What are "challenges"?
      Challenges are generally things to do that require decent amount of time and effort to complete. We hope to create challenges that promote active gameplay and interactions with others. (p.s.: we are open to ideas!)

    2. What is this "HP/MP AP locked" route?
      Upon opting in this route, players will no longer be able to add or reset AP into HP/MP anymore.

    3. Why are we locking AP into HP/MP?
      To prevent players from abusing the system for faster washing toward 30k HP characters.

    4. Do the HP thresholds include HP from equips?
      No, the HP thresholds are the base max HP only. Characters may still be able to benefit from wearing HP equips to get more HP.

    5. Why is the HP threshold chosen and limited in that way?
      The HP threshold choice was done in consideration of the appropriate HP a character should have for those levels, while keeping things challenging and inclusive of the skills that the job has. Hyper Body will also be needed for the hardest-hitting bosses in game.

    6. I'm currently washing with INT, does this mean I'm ruined?
      No, you can still opt-in to the new system! But remember to remove all the AP from your HP/MP first.

    7. I have washed my character, but I have lower HP than the HP threshold stated. Can I still opt-in?
      Yes, you can still opt-in; but the HP reward will be adjusted to match the HP threshold.

    8. Can I do this challenge at level 200? And if so, will it affect the HP reward?
      Yes, you will be able to do the challenges: the HP reward per threshold will be based on a formula that includes your current HP, and what it was supposed to be at the appropriate challenge threshold level. For more information, we encourage you to check Cassandra Rosa to know what you'll be getting exactly for completing each challenge threshold!

    9. Is the old washing system gone?
      No! The old washing system will still be in place for those that want to get higher HP characters.

    10. Can I still do the challenges to get more HP even if I'm over the HP threshold?
      Yes, you can still do the challenges, but it may not reward you more HP until the higher level challenge threshold. If you are above all the thresholds, then it simply won't reward you any more HP. Please talk with Cassandra Rosa to know what will be rewarded exactly.

    11. I'm a mage. Can I still MP wash after accepting this HP quest?
      Yes: while the challenges don't offer MP increase rewards, you will still be allowed to invest AP into your MP pool, as a Mage class.
      Remember, however, that you will NOT be allowed to invest AP into HP, even as a Mage!

    12. When will this be available?
      We do not have an ETA. However, while this first feedback-gathering phase is ongoing, we will be working on building up the code behind it; a testing phase, with the challenges available for direct testing, will be coming in one of our next patches. If that goes well, the full implementation will follow shortly after.

    From the community, we would like to hear what you think about the proposed HP washing alternative, and to test if the HP reward amount is working and makes sense.

    In addition, should you be interested in the inner workings of our calculations, here is a spreadsheet that lets you play around with your level/HP/Challenge threshold, while displaying the formulas applied. Feel free to test the system, and let us know how it goes.


    We look forward from hearing from you!

    Thank you,
    The MapleLegends Team
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2023
    • Great Work x 47
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    • Creative x 2
  2. zswitch
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    zswitch Slime

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    awesome
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  3. SharpestEdge
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    SharpestEdge Slime

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    What a creative solution, can't wait to see it in action
     
  4. Motto
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    Motto Skelegon

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    Don't even need to be an Alpha test, solution is very good.

    [​IMG]
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  5. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    This sounds marvelous, can't wait to try it out.
     
  6. irae
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    irae Snail

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    Itz Cold
  7. Kaeli
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    Kaeli Mano

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    Finally! Love it!
     
  8. Willhelm
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    Willhelm Red Snail

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    Finally! I can play a archer/thief/sair without worrying about saving up at least 3 months worth of NX! Going to make a fresh character ASAP! :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
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  9. Solo
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    Solo Red Snail

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    Mazal tov. Good job!
     
  10. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Zakum

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  11. Mero
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    Mero Blue Snail

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    Much needed, especially for new players
     
  12. sirunfunded
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    sirunfunded Slime

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    Can there be a system for half-washed chars to take out all our base int en masse? I might just make a new char since it's 4 months of voting for me just to wash out my base int to join this
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
  13. Krythan
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    Krythan Nightshadow

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    Fascinating! I for one think this is a fabulous direction for the longevity of the server, and I'm very very excited to read the discussions and learnings from this alpha.
     
  14. Prcivl
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    Prcivl Red Snail

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    This is an amazing idea for every class except mages it seems.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. WatIsDeze
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    WatIsDeze Horny Mushroom

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    How do the Max HP-Upping skills that Warriors and Buccs have fit into this? Can they be left empty with no change to the end results granted by doing the challenges?
     
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  16. Slime
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    Slime Pixel Artist Retired Staff

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    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Tarnished
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    Tarnished Pac Pinky

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    Can we get an option to automatically undo all HP/MP and INT allocation?

    This would be huge for players who have started HP/MP washing but would prefer to do challenges instead


    And on the topic of alternative prizes to permanent HP gain, bonus MP would be really nice
     
    • Agree Agree x 9
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  18. carebu
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    carebu Brown Teddy

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    Seeing as the system basically locks you into a route of progression, and if you choose to opt into it you're basically voiding all the NX you have invested into washing (assuming you're still under the low thresholds provided) it'd be nice to see an easy opt-in, where you can just cleanse your washing ap and lock into the system, since it won't enable you to do any exploits towards getting more hp with its absolute values. (What I mean is, people with 150int right now who may rather go for this system when it lands, are going to be in an unfortunate position of having to amass nx to get out of their investments of the washing ecosystem)

    Just a thought, I don't know. This seems like a new-character and blind-play beneficial change to me, most people who have any amount of washing 100+ are going to exceed these thresholds and be gimped, given a split decision of ungimping for a high cost and loss of opportunity, or just remain gimped and ignore the system altogether. But as for you level 200s who haven't washed at all, congrats, this is pog.

    edit: tarnished inb4'd me
     
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  19. hylto
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    hylto Snail

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    Sounds good to me
     
  20. ooShawnyoo
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    ooShawnyoo Dark Stone Golem

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    Yo that is a very good system, thanks for the work!

    I have a question:

    If a bucc or warrior doesn't play well and did not add hp increase skill, or they maxed it later than they should have, will completing a challenge just bump their hp to a threshold even though they should be lower since they didn't optimize their HP increase skill? Or do the challenges just add HP based on the thresholds ( and not bump the HP to a threshold specifically)?

    Edit: Another question:

    If we opt in for the HP gain via challenges system (but we have AP into HP/MP), can Cassandra reset it all for us? Or at least tell us how much AP we have in each so we know how much to remove?
     
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