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[Guide] Krythan's Reverse Stale Washing Guide

Discussion in 'Guides' started by Krythan, Jun 26, 2024.

  1. Krythan
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    Krythan Zakum

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    > Using Stale MP Washing to gain a little more MP before enrolling in the HP Challenges
    When a character enrolls in the HP Challenges, their "Base HP is permanently increased". It doesn't matter what your HP value is before enrolling in the challenges. Since the amount of HP you have before enrolling would no longer matter, why don't we first convert any excess HP you might have had into a little bit of extra MP?

    I call this Reverse Stale Washing.

    Technically, it's a form of "Stale Washing" or "Stale MP Washing", but as this technique is considerably more niche, I wish to avoid confusion with other types of washing.

    Requirements:
    1. Any non-mage character that is going to enroll in the challenges.
    2. Enough NX for AP Resets
    3. Patience, and a a desire for over-optimization

    The Process:

    1. Put a single point into your HP.
    2. Use an AP Reset to -HP to +MP
    3. Repeat step #2 until you can no longer take a point out of HP.
    4. Finally, reset that single point from MP into your primary stat.
    5. And enroll in the HP Challenges!
    Tip: The later you wait to enroll in the HP Challenges, the more levels you'll have to gain HP, this the more MP you'll be able to create.

    The Explanation

    The Benefits

    Having a higher MP value means that...
    • You'll have to buy (marginally) fewer pots.
    • You'll be able to attack for longer without potting
    • You'll be less likely to encounter the scenario in Horntail where you're both Mana Drained and Seduced, but don't have the MP to cast Hero's Will.

    The Formulas

    Here are the Minimum HP Formulas for beginners, and classes of 2nd job and onward. This table also shows how much HP is lost, and MP is gained for each Reverse Stale Wash.

    Class-HP+MPMinimum HP
    Beginner-10+6(12 * level) + 50
    Warrior, Fighter-54+2(24 * level) + 472
    Warrior, Page-54+2(24 * level) + 172
    Warrior, Spearman-54+2(24 * level) + 172
    Bowman-20 (?)+10(20 * level) + 378
    Thief-20+10(20 * level) + 378
    Pirate (Buccaneer)-42+14(22 * level) + 380
    Pirate (Corsair)-42 (?)+14(22 * level) + 380
    MageN/AN/ANot Recommended
    Further testing required to confirm the accuracy of these numbers.

    Who Benefits the Most?


    Albeit, this is a pretty niche trick. This process not be worth the effort or NX for the majority of players. However, there are a few cases where this is worth consideration.
    • Players that already started to wash, but are choosing to opt-out of washing in favor of the HP Challenges. These characters will already have an inflated HP or MP pool, allowing them to gain a decent amount of Bonus MP.
    • Classes that benefit (more than others) from having a larger MP pool. Most notably, Corsairs and Bow Masters both benefit greatly from more MP, allowing them to continuously attack for longer before re-potting.
    • Classes such as the Warriors that naturally gain very little MP every level. Even a small amount of gained MP may feel noticeable.

    Already at 30k HP!?

    One additional application of this strategy is for characters who are at 30k HP, and/or their gear pushes them to 30k HP. In this case, since any Level Up gains are going to best lost, you could Reverse Stale Wash some of your HP to MP, such that you can still benefit from the Level Up HP gains, and gain a marginal amount of MP.

    Source: Nise's HP Washing Formulas

    Thanks to SubterlaborSubterlabor for exploring this concept with me!

    Disclaimer: I haven't personally done this, so I don't know if it will work.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2024
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  2. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    I believe drks who don't have 30k hp will benefit a lot from this
     
  3. Lynch
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    Lynch Horny Mushroom

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    Write up looks great and I’m excited to try this out in the coming weeks.

    I learned something new regarding step 4 - is it necessary to remove the one point out of MP to put it into your primary stat?

    Is it possible to remove yet another HP point to put it into your primary stat?

    I was also calling this method “reverse washing” as well, as it is opposite to what you’d usually do to gain HP. That’s a good term for it.
     
  4. redpotion
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    redpotion Mixed Golem

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    You're at minimum HP, so I wouldn't think so.
    So maybe the optimisation is to figure out exactly what min HP is for your level, and when you hit min HP after removing the AP from HP, instead just put it in your primary stat.
     
  5. redpotion
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    redpotion Mixed Golem

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    Y'know, thinking about it, one could probably do something abominable like leech a 400 INT attacker, reverse wash, then do their challenges/reset the INT for some more MP, at small, small cost of an additional 1.2m NX.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2024
  6. OP
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    Krythan
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    Krythan Zakum

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    You certainly could. Though at that point, if you're putting in the effort, you might as well properly wash the character. The most likely use case for this Reverse Stale Wash strategy is for characters that were planning to wash to a lower threshold than the HP Challenges would provide. For example, there's a lot of archers/thieves that were working on a 10k wash plan... then the challenges were announced. Since they'll be able to get more HP from the challenges, it was silly to continue their current wash plan. However, these characters will be able to salvage at least something from the gains they've made so far in the form of a decent surplus of MP.
     
  7. redpotion
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    redpotion Mixed Golem

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    Definitely. Was just a silly thought.
     
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  8. OP
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    Krythan
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    Krythan Zakum

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    In order to enroll in the HP challenges, "The base HP/MP increase prize can only be redeemed if... The player has no AP invested in their HP/MP pool...". So that 1 point you put into the HP/MP pool must be removed in the end.

    Once you no longer have at least 1 point in HP/MP pool, you won't be able to remove any more points. The concept of "infinitely resetting points" is a mechanic that's exclusive to directly moving stale ability points between HP and MP because they "share the same pool". Read more about this concept in this mage guide or this night lord guide.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2024
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  9. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    For anyone thinking about doing this, please consider the following points:
    1. The vast majority of your MP gains will be from MP washing. Reverse washing will contribute very little overall, in the realm of 100-200 MP depending on when you started, unless you previously HP washed.
    2. If you're going to already be going through the trouble of leeching up an attacker with 400 INT, you might as well just wash properly. The hardest part of washing is MP washing and resetting INT; if you're going through all that trouble, you might as well skip challenges and stale wash over time normally, since you can just do that slowly as you gain NX.
    3. Having an incredibly large MP pool isn't necessary for most people, or even noticeable in many cases. For many classes, you'll be hit with a 1/1 before you burn through your entire MP pool, meaning there's large diminishing returns in MP once you get past a certain point (depending on your class, and the fight).
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2024
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  10. Lynch
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    Lynch Horny Mushroom

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    It appears the formula chart for -HP is not correct for Shadowers @ 120. I have double checked and it appears to be -20 HP per APR. Sharing to document it.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2024
  11. DrChuchu
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    DrChuchu Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    Sometimes the APR window prompt isn't always accurate, like with mage's -MP amount. In this you are correct, it seems the chart needs to be updated.

    Before:
    upload_2024-7-5_10-40-38.png
    upload_2024-7-5_10-40-51.png

    After:
    upload_2024-7-5_10-41-10.png
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2024
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  12. OP
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    Krythan
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    Krythan Zakum

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  13. Lynch
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    Lynch Horny Mushroom

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    Apparently the minimum HP for Shadower at 120 is 2758 (thanks NightzNightz for checking).
    Using the chart/formulas, the minimum HP would have calculated to 2778 HP, so that also needs to be updated.

    This is my journal on how it went for me. My calculations:
    Current HP @ 120 Shadower: 3123
    Minimum Thief HP @ 120: 2758
    365 HP can be removed, -20 HP per AP, Total can remove 18.25 times, or 18 times APR
    So I remove -HP to +MP 17 times (I already +1 HP)
    On the 18th time, -HP -> +LUK

    Here are the results, before washing, after 17 APR -HP to +MP, and the final -HP to +LUK:
    [​IMG]

    Now, going to Rosa to redeem that first HP challenge tier. Wow, she seems a little surprised! +837 HP on the first tier alone!
    [​IMG]

    All in all, for a measly 55,800 NX, I got 170 MP for free.

    Not game changing but I'm happy.
     
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  14. DrChuchu
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    DrChuchu Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    Eh I'm checking a couple of characters I have so I can give some more chart updates:

    Spearman is -54HP/+2 MP regardless of skill level in +MaxHP, it might be the same for other warrior classes
    upload_2024-7-5_13-30-13.png
    upload_2024-7-5_13-30-20.png

    Buccaneer is -42HP/+14MP, I don't think it will change with HP skill level
    upload_2024-7-5_13-36-37.png
    upload_2024-7-5_13-36-44.png

    Bowman appears to be correct
     
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  15. OP
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    Krythan
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    Krythan Zakum

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    July 5th, 2024 - Updated HP/MP values in the chart based on testing. Thanks DrChuchuDrChuchu for helping to investigate these. So far, I've recorded:

    Warrior
    - example
    • Each Reverse Stale Wash costs -54 HP, and gains +2 MP.
    • The AP Reset window is correct.
    • The MaxHP skill has no effect. (example)

    Pirate (Buccaneer) - example
    • Each Reverse Stale Wash costs -42 HP, and gains +14 MP.
    • The AP Reset window is correct.
    • The MaxHP skill has no effect. (example)

    Thief - example
    • Each Reverse Stale Wash costs -20 HP, and gains +10 MP.
    • The AP Reset window is correct.

    Mage - example
    • Each Reverse Stale Wash costs -10 HP, and gains +18 MP.
    • The AP Reset window is correct.
    • The MaxMP skill has no effect. (example)

    Beginner - example
    • Each Reverse Stale Wash costs -10 HP, and gains +6 MP.
    • The AP Reset window is NOT correct. (incorrectly shows -12 HP)

    I'm assuming that Archers follow the same formulas as the Thieves. But further testing required for Archers and Corsairs as I didn't have a mule for these at time of testing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2024
  16. DrChuchu
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    DrChuchu Balance Team Staff Member Balance Team

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    Archer for proof
    upload_2024-7-6_19-28-48.png
    upload_2024-7-6_19-29-9.png
     
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