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The HP Challenges are better than you thought....

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Krythan, Jan 23, 2024.

  1. Krythan
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    Krythan Headless Horseman

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    I think the Challenges System - HP Wash Alternative is better that we initially though. The challenge includes a number of thresholds that characters who opted into the challenge system can achieve. These thresholds don't account for additional HP bonuses such as:
    1. Gear - +1,000 HP from Tier 10 Monster Book, +100 from Ellin Ring, and +300 from Pet Equip. Add another 150 for face accessory on mages.
    2. Levels - Characters will still gain additional HP from LevelUps from 181 to 200.
    Assumptions: Excluding Mark of Naricain (+300) and Black Fist Cloak (+300), and assuming that our 3x scrolled pet equips are reasonably scrolled.

    Based on these additional sources of HP, we can updated the projected HP amount for characters that opted into the challenge, such that, our new Total is the HP a character would have at 200.

    ClassMagesWarriorsBuccsShadsOthers
    Base3,40027,00017,00010,00012,000
    Gear1,5501,4001,4001,4001,400
    Levels2401,3201,100440440
    Total5,190 HP29,720 HP19,500 HP11,840 HP13,840 HP
    And here are the estimates if the character has the Hyper Body buff:

    ClassMagesWarriorsBuccsShadsOthers
    Total8,305 HP30,000 HP30,00018,94422,144 HP
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2024
    • Great Work Great Work x 6
  2. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    The main reason a lot of the end game community thinks that the end state reward for the hp challenge system is lackluster (at least for range classes) is because a lot of us have experience using range characters with about the same hp as a finished challenge player in boss runs, and its simply not a good experience and one that i personally would never want to repeat.

    Once you reach a certain point in your progression, moving towards lower man runs becomes excessively difficult if you are held back by your hp. 6 man HT runs mostly run without hb.

    In the context of pink bean, lower man runs have barely have any dk (and they are mostly hb mules brought charitably by other players who themselves don't even need hb), and the few hb slots that exist are extremely competitive and are taken up by NLs with perfect gear.

    The challenge system is a great way for a new player to start a character, but it has its limitations. If they are serious about playing the game long term, a new player should be voting concurrently for a future washed character. For the challenge system to completely work in the current meta, there needs to be some change that eventually lets all the classes do content without reliance on hb to survive the game.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2024
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  3. Asanagi
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    Asanagi Chronos

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    Nerf Nightlords Shadow Shifter.

    No longer will Nooblords F2 Dodge everything, henceforth THEY SHALL FACE TANK.

    #Fuckinhatenightlordsmorethenmultimagers
     
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  4. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    Night Lords are a BM's best friend. You give them SE, and they protect you from Seduce. It's a beautiful symbiotic relationship.
     
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  5. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    ideally challenges should be good enough, but not so good that encourages endgame players to undergo the system. buff something like this too hard and benefits eventually accrue to endgame players while new players, facing the new power creep, would eventually end up on forums asking for some other buff to "equalize" things
     
  6. OP
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    Krythan
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    Krythan Headless Horseman

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    I agree. I think the staff did a great job making the challenges viable, while not detracting from the reward of the investment into washing. akashskyakashsky is right, that they'll never be truly comparable to the convenience and viability of washing to 30k HP, but they still provide a decent amount of HP, and open up much of end-game that wouldn't have otherwise been accessible to many.
     
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  7. kiwiz
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    kiwiz Skelegon

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    HP challenge is worse than I thought after this thread.
     
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  8. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    bucc gets 55 hp per level so it's a bit higher

    also mages can wear nose for like 150 hp completely free, squishier classes can wear 350 hp eye (at cost of some dex, but it's worth it if required)

    edit: nobody accepts even the slightest loss of damage, as if it doesn't make any difference
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2024
  9. OP
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    Krythan
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    Krythan Headless Horseman

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    Updated! Good catch, thank you very much!
     
  10. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    what point is too much though?
     
  11. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    9 dex from nose for 150 hp should be ok at some hp ranges
    10 stats from eye for 350 hp should also be ok
    8-12 stats on earring for 90-100 hp might be ok as well
    MoN ok for some classes but small damage nerf relative to TL pendant unchaosed (not accounting for avoidability)

    btw pet equips can easily go to like 200 hp each which is like free

    people really overvalue stats but damage for stat only gets penalized heavily after like gloves/shoe/hat/cape gets involved (not accounting for bfc)
     
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  12. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    ok hp scrolled bfc, got it, go on
     
  13. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    I particularly liked the idea of challenges, mainly because later it can be completed with things like belt, medal, quest ring, etc.. the proposal was to give more HP, not QoL or maximum HP
     
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  14. OP
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    Krythan
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    Krythan Headless Horseman

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    Related to the discussion, here's something I've been pondering... and would love thoughts on.

    We have Nise's Major Bosses & HP Required thread, but I have yet to find a good resource for what is the recommended minimum to comfortably run bosses. I know it's subjective, but here's what I've collected from asking players that know more than I do!

    Would love your thoughts:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2024
  15. OP
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    Krythan Headless Horseman

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    If it makes you feel better, let's pretend the person asking is on their way to 30k, but still waiting on NX to finish Stale HP Washing... and wants to know "I have X hitpoints, what bosses can I have a good time at"
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2024
  16. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    that's because sweatier players have lower tolerance for pain so choose to play the game on easy mode. more casual players do the opposite

    the problem is what's considered acceptable shifts up over time as meta evolves since both casuals and sweaties share the same market but casuals have to keep pace with the sweaties' efficiency gains
     
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  17. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    KrythanKrythan to elaborate on this, the "recommended" HP amount can vary wildly depending on how the player chooses to approach the boss.

    Most "optimized" strategies rely on players having more HP than the minimum recommended amount.
    Two great examples:
    • It's well-known that starting Right Head in HT will on average speed up runs, especially with a Sair in the party. However, this strategy is reliant on the Bishop having at least 7k HP, since LH will be up for a significantly longer amount of time and pretty much the entire time that DPs are going out, meaning the chance of the Bishop being one shot is drastically higher than if the squad started Left Head first. The minimum recommended HP is often around 4k, but these Bishops are often relegated to LH first squads.
    • Pink Bean strategies change immensely between 30-man and sub-30 squads. 30 man squads pretty much exclusively run Right Bird first during Stage 4 and 5, removing the source of mass seduce as quickly as possible at the cost of 3-4 Time Leap casts. This means that players do not have to deal with Mass Seduce at all during the run as they'll be fully Holy Shielded while RB dies, which allows "lower HP" characters at 19-24k to run. In sub-30 squads, RB is pretty much exclusively killed last and largely ignored for the sake of clear consistency and to ease the burden on Time Leaps required. This means any non-Thief character under 30k is going to run the risk of dying to mass seduce unless you can mule a Bishop, meaning that the "minimum recommended HP" shoots up from 19k to 30k for things like Archers.
    A lot of strategies like this exist that either result in a faster clear speed (like in the case of HT) or a more consistent clear rate (such as in the case of PB) but require more HP than normal from the runners.

    This is the reason why the "recommended" HP for a character is as high as possible. You will be able to run bosses with less, but you'll lose access to strategies that are faster, more consistent, and more profitable.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2024
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  18. OP
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    Krythan Headless Horseman

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    I totally agree!

    And also, thanks for the explanations. Those are really, really good examples of how requirements different between strategies.

    I guess I should explain the basis for this question.

    There are two questions that I see a lot.

    a.) What content will be be excluded from if I choose to do the HP Challenges.
    b.) If I plan to have _ hit points, what content can I run?

    These questions are most often asked by players that don't yet know the intricacies. They don't know the various HT strategies, or PB orders. And they're trying to make a (big) decision on the future of their characters, based on partial knowledge.

    And when people say "30k. 30k is the only viable path"...

    ...that answer just doesn't help newer players.

    In fact, it actively discourages them.

    It's often a simple question, with a very complicated answer. And it's overwhelming.

    So, what I'm trying to get to... is a simple answer for a simple question.

    Saying: "Well, the HP Challenges are great if you want to do Horntail, but they're probly not going to be enough for Pink Bean"

    ...even if that doesn't represent all the intricacies.... it sets people up on the right path.
     
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  19. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    I think that feeling of being discouraged will hit at some point, regardless of how it's delivered. I've seen players wash to HP amounts that they feel is enough, only to become extremely frustrated and discouraged later when they can't run anyways despite being "technically enough". You see this a lot with attackers at 12-18k HP in PB becoming frustrated that squads don't have available HB slots, or with 4k HP Bishops being frustrated that they get rejected by pretty much any 6 man squad that can clear in under 90 minutes.

    Living the low HP life sucks. Washing isn't fun, but it's infinitely less suffering than an eternity of never having access to things without entirely remaking a character.

    I've found that taking the time to coach people through the intricacies of what different HP amounts will mean and how much suffering they can expect helps ease the blow. If you explain things well then most players are understanding that there's definitely suffering ahead but a lot of it can be mitigated with good planning (voting discipline and planned character infrastructure).
     
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  20. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    challenges is ok but thats why new players should vote on a separate account on the side because how else can one protect against meta changes? the purpose for challenges is to allow people to enter content, but it never had to be profitable. challenges is fine for 12 person HT or 30 person PB but when strategies change, hp becomes an extra strike to viability.

    either way it doesn't matter since people will eternally complain until they're effectively 30k hp, but then others will just expand horizontally (easy to get to 30k hp + tradables) to multi attack or vertically with gear (30k hp + untradables).
     
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