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Feedback Dark Knight Skill Changes

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by xiaoyaoz, Sep 20, 2022.

  1. shck
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    shck Timer Retired Staff

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    While having transparency and gathering opinion from the player-base is much appreciated, I feel like there are WIPs that addresses certain issues that are commonly pointed out.
    1) Defense Rework - Depending on how efficient this ends up being, it should immensely improve survivability for DK players.
    2) Auf Heben map flying mechanic - The current issues/complaints with Auf Heben in general are pretty much all solved when(not a matter of if) this gets implemented.

    With that out of the way, the complaints would be DKs single target DPM and main utility skill being circumvent by HP wash. It doesn't help that DKs main utility skill(Hyper Body) is a 2nd job skill and their main attacking skills(Crusher & Fury) are 3rd job skills(this applies for Marksmen). Making direct changes to these skills would likely be seen as over-tuned.
    As (probably) the most challenging class to balance with respect to their counterparts, it might be more feasible to make tweaks/changes that indirectly affect the class positively.
     
  2. CreamPuffDad
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    CreamPuffDad Timer

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    I feel like that one suggestion has merit.

    Turn Berserk into an active skill instead of the passive it is now. Once active, it gives a larger attack boost than it does at the moment, and either amplifies damage taken or reduces your def. This boost should also scale, giving you even more damage boost the lower your hp is. That way, DRKs no longer have to pick between either doing dps with a chance of being killed in one hit or doing shit dps for survivability.

    Make the debuff big enough that they may still die if they don't heal up for a big hit while berserk is up, without completely killing their damage in the process, and the damage boost high enough to fulfil both the high risk/high reward playstyle advertised by the class as well as the Staff's desire for more active gameplay. This encourages DRKs to understand boss skills and time their berserks to get the most out of it rather than what they currently do at PB (sandbag).

    For reference, it could look something like:
    HP% - Current Damage Boost / Proposed Damage Boost
    5% - 109% / 150%
    100% - 0% / 50%

    I don't know much about programming, so I can't say anything about whether or not it fits the server's 0.62 direction, so i leave that up to the staff's discretion.

    That said, the debuff/buff should be balanced so that the average dpm an optimally played DRK can put out is still lower than an optimally played pally, though personally I feel like at that point, its down to equipment and game mechanics rather than player skill.

    It's the same argument for sairs and NL, thereotically sairs can put out stupid amounts of dpm at almost all bosses other than HT, much more than NL, but the number of high level sair players still pale dramatically compared to high level NL players simply because of NL's ease of play. The same concept can applied to Pally and DRK, with Hero occupying the cleaver slot.
     
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  3. Eighty
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    Eighty Windraider

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    • What's your overall view on Dark Knights?
    They're an extremely fun class to play. They are perfectly fine if you don't consider PB and some of the NT bosses.
    • What is the class lacking currently?
    Hyper Body prevents DKs from being buffed in any significant way.
    • What changes would make Dark Knights more interesting/fun to play?
    At this point, I have accepted that DKs cannot be reworked without their identity being obliterated and not be overpowered. Anyone looking to main DKs should have made good friends in-game prior or look to forge friendships. I am not trying to be salty or sarcastic but this is my experience. I had a blast on my DK because there was no pressure to hold one's own weight. We carried each other at content we lacked in.


    Perhaps Sacrifice could be reworked to work regardless of whether you hit a mob or not and make it give iframes with a CD of 20 seconds at max level, costing 25%? of current HP. This way there is some strategy to improve dpm via zerk uptime by being able to dodge without having to body bang bosses.

    Aura of the Beholder needs reworking. The healing was useless anyway.
    Maybe it could heal MP instead.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
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  4. Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    The way I see it, the dilemma of increasing the damage output of DKs has less to do with the fact that they have an impactful party buff and more to do with the fact that doing so would entirely marginalize heroes due to their extreme overlap. After all, consider the bucc and archer classes: all of them have significant party utility while still having high damage. So I have no qualms with DKs receiving buffs in a vacuum.

    However, there is simply not enough space between heroes and DKs currently for DKs to receive any meaningful single target boost while still being below heroes. Were DKs to simply receive a significant damage boost, they would just be better heroes that also have HB, with the caveat that DKs require more attention and skill. Is it okay for heroes to be worse in almost every way just on the basis that they're easier to play, i.e. are we alright with heroes just being the poor man's (or dumb man's) DK? I ask this genuinely and not rhetorically. I believe this would simply mimic the current dynamic between FPs and ILs (and BMs and MMs to an extent) and I don't see that as being healthy.

    I could go on and on about improving DK survivability via a better Achilles, by making Elemental Resistance more relevant, and/or by having Beholder grant a few seconds of iframes after every hit (and thus making hyperzerking relevant to some extent in all content), but none of that matters very much until we first establish where the goalpost is.

    I think that the first steps taken by staff with the last patch to further differentiate DKs from heroes by having DKs be marginally better cleavers and heroes be better single target attackers was a good direction to move in and one that we should further move in. DKs certainly need more buffs but not with some heavy-handed approach that makes another class obsolete. This may seem like a conundrum at first glance but there are actually several ways we can finesse this situation and I offer three of them here:
    1. Have DKs be the dominant cleave powerhouse (significantly more so than heroes) by way of having crusher do more damage the more targets it hits, i.e. the opposite of the heal skill situation whereby heal does less damage or heals for less the more targets there are. Heroes would still generally do more single target damage.
    2. Give heroes some form of party utility (the easiest being a revamped party enrage) to free DKs from the anchor that is HB by way of offering heroes a way to still distinguish themselves from DKs after the latter receives a significant damage buff.
    3. Buff DK damage significantly via a revamped scaling for zerking but offer no remedies to the zerking situation at bosses such as PB and Auf. This way DKs and heroes still have their own respective niches that they both excel and perform poorly at. As a thought experiment, consider whether DKs would be in a fine position or not if they excelled at all content except PB and Auf.
     
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  5. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    good idea above, but do take into consideration for Pallies for single target dmg comparison
     
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  6. Eighty
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    Eighty Windraider

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    One more thing, why is the threshold for 100% bonus damage now at 50%? It used to be at 55%. I haven’t done Castellan Toad in a while but I believe there is a situation in B2 where you need to be near 50-55% of max HP. I expect a dip in DPM just based off of past experience. I don’t believe there are other instances where DPM would dip with the new zerk. Could we move the whole thing up by 5%? So 110% bonus is reached at 5% and not 1HP.
     
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  7. Crash
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    Crash Red Snail

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    Overall view on DKs:
    Hardest to play, very expensive pot-wise, lower tier dmg of the warrior classes while being the squishiest. The recent changes to zerk was a step in the right direction IMO. I know it's been said alot already, but hb's importance is going to keep diminishing as everyone becomes hyper washed.

    How Could Dark Knights be improved / Interesting fun to play:

    I like both these suggestions to Crusher:

    1. Crusher hits higher numbers on a single target, and distribute that dmg when cleaving. (Cornwall's post)
    2. keep DK as the cleave exclusive and have crusher hit more the more enemies there are. (Gurk's post)

    Onto the issue of survivability. (defense rework aside)

    Aura of the beholder is not only a useless skill, but with the new zerk changes actively griefs your dmg. All of the beholder skills tie in with the Dk's identity, and imo should not be something that just takes up space. Most DKs ive talked to completely reset their points out of Aura.

    One of the best suggestions i've read, but is a huge overhaul- is to have Aura function as a dmg absorber. The lower your health goes, the more dmg it absorbs to keep you alive. Fits very nicely into the class identity of risk vs reward, and can allow zerk to be unchanged as is.
    I think its a fair addition considering heroes and pallies have powerguard AND achilles, while DKs only have achilles. Out of the 3 warrior classes- Dks would be the one that actually needs powerguard the most, considering heroes and pallies have upwards of 20k~hp that they can actually use.

    In the end though, if this is too custom to implement then a hp to mp conversion would also be a nice QOL change.

    Just my thoughts for now, might add later as I read through more posts.

    Edit 1:
    The more I think about it, the more I think DK's identity should be rooted as the premier cleave of the warrior classes, instead of trying to salvage their single target dmg. Have them excel at their niche. Leave pallies as the best, and have heroes be a jack of trades. This could come through a couple different ways already suggested (better scale zerk, etc.).

    Edit 2:
    I'm open to some reworking of hb (maybe longer duration?) and dragon's blood, but honestly these don't take priority over what I mentioned earlier. I also don't think changing a shared warrior skill like Achilles is the way to go. Achilles / Rush / Magnet / Stance are all the same for a good reason as they make up the shared identity of all 4th job warriors. If there is a singular thing that should be changed at all it 100% needs to be Aura of the Beholder.

    Edit 3:
    Lower the price of sushis pls
     
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  8. GramStain
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    GramStain King Slime

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    • What's your overall view on Dark Knights?
    Ok class to start out or fine to make a HB mule. Sucks at end game - pot costs, damage/zerk. Having played DK for 4 years (close to quitting/playing very infrequently now), I've been waiting for a job change for years. I honestly regret making a DK, and should have just stuck with Hero (as I did in GMS) or try a pally. I am pretty much a HB mule. Let's be real - ML is no longer HP washing optional if you want to do end game bossing. DKs are on their way out in terms of usefulness (ie - HB), given how many people are washing to survive most content. HP washing optional ... who wants to be excluded from content? Now that PB is Lv175, I have been playing even less, so thank you for that.

    With this most recent balance, I guess it's a tiny improvement. For low damage content (eg. cwkpq), how are we supposed to maintain that low damage/high risk if we're constantly being hit? I don't see how we get that much of a damage boost (haven't tested it out) unless you're willing to shell out tons of mesos into low HP pots. For high damage content (eg. pb, nt2), is zerk even an option for the DKs starting out? Our damage is severely decreased unless you're willing to pay so much attention to your HP bar/boss animations. Why so much risk/attention (compared to other jobs) for little reward since we're constantly hit anyway? Genuinely curious: how many DKs have been to Auf?
    • What is the class lacking currently?
    Damage, survivability, demand if the squad doesn't need HB. I see 15x pallies doing 100K+ lines (and at a faster speed) on top of HH, while I'm still doing ~60-75K total at 17x. Pretty upsetting if you ask me. Ski/PB are pretty much the only end game weapons, while Heroes/Pallies have more (cheaper) options. They are hard to obtain and costly to buy/risky to scroll.
    • What changes would make Dark Knights more interesting/fun to play?
    If DKs have to maintain ~ 50% HP or less to have decent damage, the damage received should be reduced by at least the same. If you really want to drive the "risk vs reward" idea, give us a lot more defence (ex: buffed up Power Guard with magic def too), and remove it from Heroes/Pallies since warriors can easily wash to 30K (or give DKs a shit ton of avoid? but that's a thief thing). Make polearms a viable option in terms of damage output, attack speed, and obtainability. I like the iFrame idea from iPippy. Give us more damage while in zerk? Make HB/DKs more likely to be a necessary part of bossing squads (idk how).

    PS - what to do with 1000+ Apples when I quit?
     
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  9. bienfu
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    bienfu Pac Pinky

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    A possible dragon blood suggestion...

    An ability with a cool down. Consume 4k HP and lose 100 HP per second to give a very high strength bonus?
     
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  10. LuisJ
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    LuisJ King Slime

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    Maybe they could rework Iron Will and make it into a useful skill?

    Instead of giving +40 flat armor/mr (which is completeley useless late game), it could give % resistances. Clerics have Invincible which reduces physical dmg by 30%, and fighters/palas have PG which reduces physical dmg by 40%, on top of Achiles which is another 15%.

    IW could be a party buff that reduces dmg to all party for like 20% or whatever, and this would not only help DKs survivability to make zerking easier, but it would also help with the HP washing problem.
     
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  11. bienfu
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    bienfu Pac Pinky

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    I like this idea.

    It makes Drks very good support defensive class and with this identity and the current Zerk, it's not necessary that they need to have top tier damage and they have the leeway to Zerk better and better in all content.
     
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  12. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I'd want to see DrK hyperzerking (<5-10%) to scale closer to corsair damage output so that their overall dpm floats a bit higher into the mid-range of class balance as a reward for better game play. This would make DrKs the conditional skills-based warrior favorite (no auto potting, difficult HP management, etc.), while buffing their early game significantly over their warrior counterparts. This would make them a much stronger first character candidate and could slowly revive the supply of DrK-as-players over DrK as HB mules.

    The main problem I see with DrK is their inability to zerk consistently. People might see zerking as a cool feature, but if the reward for zerking is only going to be on par with other classes that don't need to follow such restrictions, it should be seen as a handicap instead. Because of this, I think the reward for zerking needs to be scaled higher than it currently is to match the risk involved, and matching their top end damage with corsairs makes sense because it is the only mechanic in this game that carries such a heavy risk. How many hyperwashed ranged players would clench their ass seeing their hp drop down to 1500? Imagine having to play below that every hit just to compare to other classes in DPM.

    DrKs deserve to be a much stronger class. HB as a utility should not be the gatekeeper for changes and the rationale should be quite the opposite. HB as a utility needs to be normalized so as to pull the meta away from its current hyperwashing trajectory. The server's past response to this has been to utilize HB mules which is a shitty bandaid fix to content gated by HP, and it degrades the inclusion of an entire class to that of a single-purpose mule. The server benefits by having more DrK players included in content, but if the current trend of HB mulability or non-HB reliant compositions keeps up, all of DrK purpose will fade. This is why it is important to make them relevant in other areas as well.

    Another thing I wanted to add - DrKs are already the most handicapped class - not only in their reliance of zerking to output dpm, but their reliance on buffs. DrK need SE, SI, and be under 50% of their HP to output normal damage. No other class demands such strict parameters to yield their optimal DPM, so those DPM graphs don't really tell the whole story and shouldn't be the only tool used for class balance considerations.
     
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  13. Loug
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    Loug Horny Mushroom

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    Whatever DrKs end up getting in the future it could work in a similar way to bucc's bubble where you have to be actively attacking in order to activate the buff, this way people won't be able to mule as easily as it is with HB and main DrKs would stay somewhat relevant once most people finish washing their 20k+ attackers.
     
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  14. HimeHam
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    HimeHam Pac Pinky

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    Disclaimer, this idea is entirely food for thought. This idea is stupid, and doesn't fit in the game at all. Also I do not have a Dark Knight, nor do I plan on making one for quite some time.

    Currently Dark Knights have 5 problems:
    • HB is becoming less useful as more players wash
    • HB isn't enough to allow unwashed players to survive endgame content
    • Dark Knights can be easily muled
    • Dark Knights have terrible damage despite taking extreme risks and requiring constant attention
    • Dark Knights cannot hang near a healing bishop, and therefor cannot hang with the party in places like Zakum
    Dark Knights also have 2 Identities:
    • Support Tank
    • High Risk High Reward DPS
    In this day and age it's clear that Dark Knights don't carry through on either Identity, and buffing both would give them too much, so which one should we focus on? Well if you've read any of the posts above this one it's clear that buffing Dark Knight damage is easier said than done due to the impact it makes on Hero players. Making buffs to Dark Knight damage would require making changes to Heroes at the same time. I would argue that Dark Knights need to focus more on the support tank role as it's mostly unexplored in MapleLegends, due to tanking not making sense while the boss just spams unavoidable attacks across the screen.

    The main issue with Dark Knights and muling is that the party buff Hyper Body isn't reactive. Buffs like Holy Shield when used effectively are used before something can happen, while mule-able things can be done once and put in the corner until rebuffs or dispel.

    Brace for impact here comes my overly custom and impossible to implement idea.

    Change Hyper Body from an HP increase into a 50-60% damage resist, but make it last only one or two seconds. Then give it a cooldown (or a short debuff where you cannot receive the resistance again) so people don't spam it constantly. Now all you gotta do is prevent heals from Bishops while zerking or with stance up or whatever, and the class can be a part of the party again.

    This change is stupid and ridiculous but I do think there's some merit to the idea of it. Washed players can still benefit a bunch from this change, while unwashed players can benefit even more. Dark Knights would be effectively un-mule-able, and the party would feel more secure around the tank. It wouldn't be enough to allow unwashed players to survive those wacky crazy lategame bosses, but it's a step in the right direction and it hits quite a few birds with one stone.
     
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  15. Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    Oh, and here's 4:

    oprah.PNG

    Have DKs gain some level of IED when zerking under some threshold, or have it scale with HP. Then do a boss revamp and tweak the defense values of bosses to introduce greater contrast between bosses with respect to defense such that DKs (and shads) are significantly stronger at some bosses (i.e. ones with high defense) and otherwise business as usual at others, thus still replicating the situation of there being respective niches where both DK and hero excel and further differentiating the strengths of the two classes from each other. This also has the side effect of decreasing the gap between range and melee in general at the bosses for whom defense is increased as ranged attackers are penalized harder by defense.

    The inadvertent effect of this change though is that it also helps out buccs.
    OnionF3

    #bucclobby
     
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  16. TerribleFool
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    TerribleFool Mano

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    I am a Drk main that just passed lvl 130. There's a lot of bossing content I am not experienced with in Old school MS, so I have less advice to give when it comes to solutions. But I know that the risk significantly outweighs the reward, even at lower lvl bossing (BF, pianus). The risk is often certain death with a single mistake and the reward is still below average damage. I don't enjoy needing to risk death just to barely compete with the other lowest DPS classes, that don't have to risk anything at all. I don't have any endgame experience, but everyone in the ML refers to the class as a mule and "deadweight" in endgame content. Even the ML DrK guide says its a waste of time to make a DrK if you want an endgame character. It seems a zerking DrK is a liability for a party that needs HB to survive. If you die, then the party dies. So you either be a weak HB mule, or zerk for a party that could go without HB. which in that case, why would you choose a DrK over any other attacking class? The way everyone is washing these days, HB will soon be a dead skill. which will make DrK's an entirely dead class. People would rather spend the extra time voting for a couple mil worth of nx just to not need a deadweight DK in their parties, which is pretty sad.

    I do think that the recent zerk changes were a net positive, but I don't think it really did anything to change the position DrK's are in. All the same problems with slightly more dps.

    I am currently playing DrK as a main simply because I've loved the class since I was a kid (I was a Tiger Stan), and used to main DrK in GMS. As it stands, I will likely switch my main when I get enough NX to wash other characters. But I would love to continue playing this character as my main when I reach endgame content, because it is my favorite class. It makes me excited that staff is looking for ways to balance out these issues, and I thank you for starting this conversation.

    I'm sorry I don't have any solutions or anything constructive to add. I just want staff to know that I exist, and that I care :]

    your friend,

    iLoveShafts™
     
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  17. SYLegend
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    SYLegend Dark Stone Golem

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    It shouldn't be an issue to give DK more damage than Hero or other comparable classes and I don't see why this is always brought up as a hindrance. I played both classes (disclaimer: on low level bosses) and Hero has you hold down one button whereas DK is more difficult to play and dies easily if you're not paying attention.

    DK should possibly even have slightly OP dpm if you're in that 0-5% or 5-10% HP range. Like it was pointed out that's clearly unviable for most bosses so it wouldn't cut into other classes niche but would provide some pretty unique advantage for this warrior at easy to manage bosses like say BF.

    Also like others pointed out Dragon Blood should do something useful since it fits well with the class identity.
     
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  18. wealthy902
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    wealthy902 Red Snail

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    Heya, Pinaka here. For context I'm a level 155 DK main without much experience with endgame bosses, but I figured I'd throw out some ideas on how to improve the class while maintaining both the identity of the class and all their abilities, as well as trying to maintain that old-school MapleStory feel.

    What's your overall view on Dark Knights?

    I love the concept of risk/reward that is offered with berserk, and the new berserk changes have been so nice in rewarding DK's for staying as low hp as possible while not harming DK's for being safer at ~60-70% hp. I do think though, that the class kinda falls flat when it feels like all I can do is comparable damage to Heroes while effectively having ~1/2 - 2/3 the available HP pool. This just feels bad that I have to manage my hp and risk being a liability to my party.


    What is the class lacking currently?
    • A use for Dragon Blood and Aura of the Beholder
    • Survivability, as your health pool is limited if you want to deal solid damage.
    • Access to cost-effective potions that make it easy to maintain Berserk
    The following suggestions are designed to help address these issues.

    ______________________________________________________________________

    Dragon Blood [​IMG]
    Dragon Blood is currently lacking any sort of use (while having a cool/unique/nostalgic visual effect). This proposal is designed to make it usable while not making rage/ciders/coke zero pills obsolete, or making Dragon Blood obsolete by Hex of the Beholder as well.

    Going off of the past suggestion in a previous post from MissEri, instead of the negligible amount of hp every 4 seconds dragon blood currently consumes, what if it consumed a much larger amount of hp for a better attack buff? MissEri's suggestion has Dragon Blood cost a flat 2000 hp every 4 seconds, which on a skill that would be reasonably used on a DK as low as level 80 is probably a bit too much for them to handle, and a larger attack buff would just make more items/skills obsolete.

    My proposal: Dragon Blood at Level 30 consumes 2% of hp and 6 mp every 1 second, granting +12 attack that stacks with other attack buffs. Can be toggled on/off (using the same current animation to toggle on, to prevent abuse), but turns off if the DK is at 1 HP.

    This makes the HP (and meso!) cost not insignificant, further leaning into the risk/reward theme of the class, while also giving Dragon Blood some use alongside the current attack buffs we all love.

    Updated Dragon Blood HP costs at different thresholds:
    30,000 HP, where pretty much every late game DK will be at: 600 HP cost per second
    23,000 HP, where less washed DKs just starting bossing at Zakum/Krexel will be at: 460 HP cost per second
    15,000 HP, where level 80 DKs might(?) end up at: 300 HP cost per second

    Using Ginseng Roots to restore the HP cost alone is 3 ginseng roots per minute, or 10,800 mesos per minute
    .

    ______________________________________________________________________

    Aura of the Beholder [​IMG]
    With the updated Berserk changes, Aura of the Beholder has little to no purpose again. A simple, yet useful solution to aura would be to change it to an active ability on the same cooldown it's currently at, allowing the DK to choose when they want to be healed. The healing values would need to be adjusted, perhaps even changed to a percent value.

    So Aura of the Beholder at level 25 could heal 20% HP on a 4 second cooldown as an example. The HP value has to feel worth it to go out of your way to use (and level) the skill, but not enough to feel detrimental to berserk.

    ______________________________________________________________________

    Achilles [​IMG]

    To address survivability, I propose adding an effect to Achilles unique to DKs to grant damage reduction the lower your HP is. Thinking about this in practice might be very tricky balance right, but I think playing with it would be fun and tie in to the current HP management gameplay that DK's already have while making zerking more viable. An issue I potentially see with this if balanced poorly is the possibility of of dying by accidentally healing too much, but I don't think with these numbers that would very likely/possible.

    I'm just throwing out numbers I haven't gone too deep into calculations with, but at level 30 starting out at 15% damage reduction at 100% HP (as it is now), up to maybe 32.5% at 50% HP and 40% at 0% HP, on a curve similar to current Berserk's damage buff.

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    Hyper Body [​IMG]

    I don't believe this suggestion directly addresses a problem with DKs, but I do believe it would help with DK gameplay while also strengthening the server's idea of making HP washing optional. I believe Hyper Body should not be dispellable. This would allow for party members that are relying on Hyper Body to be able to survive without risking death due to a DK's late reactions, and allow for the DK to not have to run around and buff everyone every time a boss dispels.

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    Sushi [​IMG]

    Sushis are a bit more accessible compared to ginsengs after the potion price increase, but they're still similarly priced while healing half the HP as ginsengs, costing more mesos and cluttering DK's inventory. To address this, I guess make sushis cheaper? As far as I'm aware they're pretty much exclusively used by DKs and are a higher cost for the convenience to maintain Berserk easier, so reducing their price to somewhere around 2000 mesos each would still be less cost effective than ginseng roots and pretty much only effect DKs.

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    Thank you for reading!
     
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  19. fartsy
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    fartsy Skelosaurus

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    6:06 AM
    Fartsy
    F/P Wizard
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    dk shouldnt need transforming elixir to enter cave
     
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  20. bienfu
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    bienfu Pac Pinky

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    secondpink
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    The short duration of hyper body and the high frequency of dispels on certain bosses heavily contributes to turning Drks into mules.

    So, instead of making HB just not dispellable, it could just be a matter of tinkering with duration of the buff and frequency of dispels.
     
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