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Information MapleLegends: My general view on "Nostalgia"

Discussion in 'MapleLegends Announcements' started by Kimmy, Mar 26, 2022.

  1. Kimmy
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    Kimmy Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

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    11:49 PM
    Moderator Post
    Hey all,

    Ever since we've started to do client editing, I've had numerous questions and concerns thrown at me.

    While it was not many people, there was a few out there that started getting concerned about the client editing occurring in this server, and how it affects their authentic gameplay in MapleLegends.

    I've given my view a few times before when it comes to my view on seeing "nostalgia", I'll use this topic again to address it one more time.

    Ever since MapleLegends was released, we've applied custom .wz edits (graphical modifications) to the server. For example, in vanilla v0.62 data some bosses had no boss bar, so you don't see their HP at all while fighting them. Such bosses were Headless horseman, Mushmom, Blue Mushmom, Female Boss, and numerous other area bosses.

    What we did during Closed Beta already is design custom boss bar colours and icons and implement them into the game.

    Before we've done this servers added a very janky "@bosshp" command which you would write each time you were fighting these bosses just to see their HP. As soon we added custom boss bars and custom icons some servers followed and did the very same thing.

    My view on this is "Quality of Life" updates, which doesn't really change how the game is played, but rather makes it feel less clunky or outdated.

    My personal view on Old School MapleStory is that I don't feel, or ever felt nostalgic from clunky gameplay. For example, in very early versions of MapleStory, NPC's had no lightbulbs yet to indicate if they had a quest or not, making you have to click every single one of them just to see if they have a quest or not. To some people this is nostalgic, but to me, this feels outdated and clunky. Of course, I like it when researching about the game, to learn how different the game was back then, but I don't like to actually "play" in worse ways.

    Another example is "stairs". In ancient MapleStory versions, you had to jump and hold right to navigate these, whereas in newer versions such as v0.62 you just had to move forward. Again, I personally just see this as clunky gameplay.

    While old school balance can be seen as nostalgic to me (ex: 3rd jobs only), clunkier gameplay (ex: no lightbulbs, no quest helper, no NPC chat), does not.

    This is a view of mine that never really changed. It became clear to me that starting v0.6x Neckson started to implement patches that make the game more user friendly. To tips, to removing dice rolling, to implementing skill recommendations, etc. In my view, Neckson started to do this because it became noticeable users who ruined their characters more and more and would quit the game over it. This is still present in a lot of levels in ML too (yes, also washing...).

    A perfect example of implementation we've recently made that will definitely help users not make major mistakes are the White Scroll / Legendary Spirit prompt changes, which will hopefully put an end to users constantly using their White Scrolls when they didn't want to. Of course, one could say "suck it up, you messed up", but I don't think we should. Yeah, Old MapleStory was all about making mistakes and learning from them, but not everyone just has that time anymore to do both. We've often also got the blame (and unfortunately rather harsh words) if we had to reject any kind of refund when such mistakes were made, for obvious reasons.

    While many people point out that wash is the main cause for people to quit the game (which I obviously acknowledged by now is indeed a big factor too), users that accidentally made a mistake that either ruin their character, ruin a rare item they had, or losing 1 or multiple White Scrolls play a massive factor as well, and we try to prevent that in current and future updates as much we try to fix the other things with balance patches.

    So while MapleLegends is an Old School MapleStory, It's not an authentic MapleStory server. I view MapleLegends as exactly how it's advertised everywhere: An Old School MapleStory server. It plays like the old game, it feels like the old game, but it still gets updates to keep it fresh, and some balance changes from time to time. Exactly what Old School Runescape is as well.

    Originally we were only making changes by .wz edits, and very minor client edits. Thanks to more advanced tech, learning, as well as reverse engineering, you may have noticed for the past few years that more and more servers start to get fancier with true client edits. Adding a custom prompt for Legendary Spirit for example is 100% a client edit, adding chairs that move your character in the v0.62 client is a client edit. All of these things are absolutely NOT possible originally but are now thanks to the way client edits are now being done.

    Thanks to these tech evolvements we've now also been able to get edits done that was a dream back in 2015 if I had an "ultimate pre-bb experience" wish, and some of them even exceeded these, slowly with each patch becoming a reality. Unfortunately though at end of the day we all got a limit on the time we can work on things, and client edits while very cool and advanced are not things you can implement in 1 day and call it a day. Very careful things have to be implemented because if doing wrong it can cause massive issues or memory leaks, which is why we have to test them a lot once implemented in our test servers.

    So will MapleLegends continue to receive client updates that tweak how it looks that may be from later versions of the game? Yes. While MapleLegends keeps evolving, we also do keep in mind we are an Old School MapleStory server, meaning we try our best to make the changes we make client wise an option to toggle off in our Legends.ini, which you can find in your root MapleLegends directory. That way, you can make MapleLegends feel like your preferences.

    I hope this helps you understand a bit more how I view MapleLegends, "nostalgia" in MapleStory, as well as how I prefer the Old School experience myself. Another reminder as always is that we do everything in a team, so things aren't just changing to how I want it, but how we think is the best for the server.

    Happy Mapling.
     
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  2. UnknownCode
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    UnknownCode Nightshadow

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    California
    2:49 PM
    Islander, Bishop, Bandit
    0
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    Aw, we all love you Kimberly and the staff team for making and editing MapleLegends to keep things enjoyable and playable for everyone.

    OnionGirlLove
     
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  3. Kargo
    Online

    Kargo Skelegon

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    Mar 5, 2015
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    11:49 PM
    Kargo
    Shadower
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    Old School Maple had a ton of issues and I agree, to have a nostalgic experience you don't need to copy all the bad 1:1 as well. I always wanted Neckson to continue the Old School Maple style, but bring out new content like they do now, I feel like Legends is definitely doing a good job in doing exactly that. Something something washing bad.
     
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  4. Hampy
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    Hampy Game Moderator Staff Member Game Moderator

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    Feb 8, 2022
    5:49 PM
    This is a great post, and I would like to share a bit of a personal anecdote to further reinforce one particular idea that is being shared here. I recently came back to this server having played in late 2016/early 2017. When I first dipped my toes into MapleLegends those ~5 years ago, my trip down Nostalgia Street started much like I imagine everyone else's does: admiring the application's mushroom icon, turning the volume down at the THX-style Wizet logo screen that pops up on application boot, turning the volume back up to appreciate the login screen music, and as is always mentioned, spending too much time rolling virtual dice to get the character off on the right foot. However, the reminiscent episode that was happening in my head was rather suddenly intruded upon as soon as I entered the game. In truth, I had originally played Maple before the introduction of the Training Camp, and seeing all the characters I remembered from in and around Mushroom Town moved out of their "natural" settings and instead dressed up in apple onesies in a Hollywood-style movie set thing was incredibly jarring and shattered the sense of nostalgia that had so far been delicately (re)constructed. In all honesty, if I could snap my fingers and revert the first two maps of Maple Island to Mushroom Town and get rid of the Training Camp entirely I would do so without hesitation. However, I recognize that while such a change would appeal to and otherwise shore up my own sense of nostalgia, it likely would be similarly off-putting to those participating in this server whose memories of "OG" Maple consist of Maple Island with the Training Camp mechanism as the Training Camp introduction was to me.

    In a server as big as this (hell, even among myself and the two people I know personally in real life that play here), everyone has a slightly (if not significantly) different experience of what Maple "was". This is to say that nostalgia is a highly personal experience, and in relation to everyone else and their respective senses of it, extremely delicate (even fragile, as can be gleaned from reading posts/comments across this forum). A few days ago, I read the "End of 2021" post that was posted a few months ago and felt an incredible amount of sympathy for Kimberly (and everyone else who contributes to the existence, maintenance, and improvement of MapleLegends) for writing a post that was not only a long time in the making, but incredibly thoughtful and mature (that is, in an experiential sense) in its recognition of the nature of nostalgia in an "old school"-style server and its relation to gameplay. It was similarly encouraging to see that many people were in agreement that enjoyable, high-quality gameplay should not be held hostage to nostalgia, which again, is anything but consistent across a population.

    I would say that between the time I originally started playing here and now, my opinions on nostalgia have evolved in a similar fashion to how Kimberly's have (albeit along different routes, as I hardly even touched anything Maple related in those intervening years). With this in mind, while making changes that could potentially "harm" people's unique senses of nostalgia is now technically easier due to the increased ability/willingness to make client edits, posts like this and the aforementioned "End of 2021" post should make it eminently clear that such changes are not easier to make in the minds of those who incubate the underlying ideas that motivate/bring about said change. Going back and reading descriptions of the various major changes over years even further reinforces the idea that the people behind this server are incredibly mindful (not to mention immensely generous in their time and effort) of the changes they do make. This server is incredibly privileged to have the people they have at the helm, and in response to those who feel they are being thoughtlessly hard done by by the people in charge when ridiculous game mechanics are even discussed as being potentially changed, I'd say that such people honestly could not be more mistaken in their perception.

    Knowing that the person/people in charge is/are as mindful as she/they is/are (fuck lol), I say bring on the c̶h̶a̶n̶g̶e̶s̶ improvements. If my sense of nostalgia survived the Training Camp, I'm sure mine and others' can stand up to much more.
     
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  5. INSAINRUSSIA
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    INSAINRUSSIA Horny Mushroom

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    5:49 PM
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    Some custom jump quests would be lit.
     
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  6. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Zakum

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    Exact, and who played like me in 2005, i was like 10-12 years old, and have lot of time, now we need qol, and no have much time to spend like boat full time, etc, so, i agree with
    this quote:

     
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  7. Nickolas
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    Nickolas Slime

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    I like legends because it isn't afraid to tell all of these nostalgia elitists (via many QOL/various other changes) that the game you remember so fondly did in fact have aspects that sucked major dong.

    I think an important part of any maple community is keeping the game as we all remember, but improving upon it and keeping it fresh. This is very much the feeling I get from legends and I fully support your decisions Kimmy! You have proven you listen to the community and are transparent with your thoughts and that's exactly what I look for in an owner and administrator.
     
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  8. Thuglifer
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    Thuglifer Capt. Latanica

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    M*2 had jq done right imo (2 entry daily), mixing kerning to sleepy to ellinia into the cafe npc for points and in exchange for crafting materials/NX. I truly felt i did improve my JQ skills under time gated pressure while having fun
     
  9. zeroxlr
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    zeroxlr Windraider

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    OnionAdore KIMMY!! You and staff works so hard to make everything enjoyable for everyone, and it really shows in the awesome quality of life changes and improvements on each patch! :heartbeat:
     
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  10. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    The true nostalgia are the friends you made along the way, that you all boss/grind/banter together.
    Then they slowly log on less and less and eventually left with/without a proper goodbye, grey forever in your buddy list.
     
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  11. farys77
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    farys77 Orange Mushroom

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    I think some people find any reason to complain and they should simply be ignored. The server is the best it's ever been!
     
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  12. Fluggo3
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    Fluggo3 Slime

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    I'm going to assume that this topic is being brought up because someone recently smega'd that they didn't feel true nostalgia in ML. I was there when the person smega'd, and there was immediate backlash towards him or her because they were basically alone in their opinion. ML brings an incredible feeling of nostalgia. QoL changes take nothing away from the nostalgia factor, and are only improvements on things that have nothing to do with nostalgia. You and the staff are consistently fixing problems and making the game smoother for the community. Please do not let that one person's complaint bother you. Seriously. The vast majority of players are on board with the QoL changes.
     
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  13. twguang
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    twguang Blue Snail

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    6:49 AM
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    My original experience in MapleSEA was:
    • Not rolling the dice during char creation
    • Putting stats into Str and Hp at Maple Island
    • Job Advancement into Magician at Level 12
    • Levelling up Magic Armour
    • Levelling up Energy Bolt beyond Level 1
    I chose to be a I/L magician because it sounded nice. Had no idea what the different classes meant [still dont, but now I know I/L mages are not welcome in bossing. Buying afk zakum~].

    I was new to gaming and made all the mistakes a noob could. Didn't join any PQ my introvert energy cant handle it. I still continued to play my incredibly flawed character because it was fun. But also because I didn't want to waste the time to create a new char.

    Came back to a private server a few years later. It had better exp rates than MapleLegends, though still not too high. I went back to an I/L mage because of the nostalgia. No need to roll dice during char creation anymore. Voted every day to get vote cash to buy gacha tickets. I made it to 4th job and the server shutdown after they received a letter threatening legal action.

    Finally started playing MapleLegends back when its ads were everywhere as a working adult. Still a solo I/L mage for the nostalgia. Although it's my third run now, Im still making many mistakes, like finding out about MP washing after 3rd job, realising Im not getting event drops because I didnt trigger the quest (*facepalm* no wonder no chocolate) But this server has been such fun. I get to use my vote cash for cosmetics without feeling like Im losing out. Most of the country specific maps/custom areas are accessible. I can explore these areas and complete more quests. I actually stopped in 2017 but came back last year because Monster Book gave me enough sense of accomplishment to continue farming. I dont understand when someone is nostalgic about rolling the dice infinitely or waiting for the startup loading screen, but I guess everyone's nostalgia is different. To me, the quality of life updates in this server is definitely a step in the right direction.
     
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  14. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Zakum

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    7:49 PM
    ItzLeo
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    people who know how was brazilian ms, know about cred card stolen to people do wash, false documents and everything else bad was did to earn nx xD
     
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  15. Estrahl
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    Estrahl Mr. Anchor

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    2:49 PM
    Kiyomasa, kage, miko, zoku, etc
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    I remember my friend had to tell me how to make a mage, as the first one I made was rather botched. Nowadays it's like maybe an hour wasted? But back then it was pretty devastating even at lower levels.

    I also remember older versions of MS only let you roll about 5 times, and then your stats were "locked." If you didn't have any of the stats you wanted, you needed to exit out of character creation and start again. OnionMad
     
  16. Trion
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    Trion Capt. Latanica

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    There is clearly enough in this server for people to get a basic understanding that will rekindle their nostalgia from a decade ago. I am totally in agreement that now the path forward should be more focused on QoL improvements if possible with custom edits here and there to polish up the game. Anybody complaining that "the game isn't nostalgic" were most likely just trolls anyway who were bored out of their minds.
     
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  17. thsscapi
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    thsscapi Mushmom

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    Nostalgia is naturally extremely subjective, since it depends entirely on each individual player's experience with the game, across all different country versions, different client versions, etc. As with anything subjective, there are all kinds of standards and double standards.

    For example, players may claim that having boss hp bars is not nostalgic, as it does not evoke the same feeling/memory of having the boss suddenly die because you cannot anticipate its death. But the same players use the @bosshp command anyway.
    Or players who say having Speed affect your ladder-/rope-climbing speed is not nostalgic, making LPQ too easy (also, adding teleporters in some maps). But the same players also avoid training in certain maps because "the layout/rotation sucks", which we all know is code for "I have to walk/climb too much".

    Unfortunately, I don't really have anything substantial to add. Nostalgia in Maple was very simple to me; Maple will always evoke one memory: logging on intending to grind for a couple hours, seeing guildies/buddies online, and end up chatting until I had to log off. Thankfully, this experience doesn't seem to be going anywhere.
     
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