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Information September 2023 Balance Changes [Explained]

Discussion in 'Update Notes' started by Nise, Sep 11, 2023.

  1. Esmo
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    Esmo Pac Pinky

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    well let’s cut the crap and let this thread die in peace , the balance team doesn’t care about our opinions because :

    IMG_2864.jpeg

    This is their logic ^^^

    We can also see it in the community event where the staff team will decide who wins what and when instead of letting the community vote for the winner

    See you next balance changes I’ll be ready with new insults
     
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  2. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Sure, but what does a BM need to pay in gear to match dpm equivalent to their NL counterpart?
     
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  3. brunandes
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    brunandes Windraider

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    That is not the same argument. We are talking about equivalent lvl 100/110 weapons. If we go by your point, how much does a mage need to pay in gear to match corsair dpm?
     
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  4. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Except it is.

    This is the original argument.
     
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  5. brunandes
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    brunandes Windraider

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    No. U were arguing that nisrocks are harder to find than craven. I'm saying if u compare craven+purple sleve vs nisrock+dragon shiner it is not that different, since dragon shiner is much more abundant than sleve.
     
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  6. brunandes
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    brunandes Windraider

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    Literally your own post.
     
  7. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    The premise of this discussion is that NLs outclass others based on any reasonable budget and that an NL with a 70 atk craven does more damage than a BM with a 119 nisrock. Even using the same budget, the BM with a 325m bow, whether it's a DSB or nisrock, would get out DPM'd.

    Not sure what you're even trying to point out here, but you can re-read all the posts in order.

     
  8. brunandes
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    brunandes Windraider

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    If your point is about dpm, not sure what is ur purpose of finding a 119 nisrock since its clearly not the same price.
     
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  9. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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  10. brunandes
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    brunandes Windraider

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    Noted, a 119 nisrock is the same price as a 70 craven according to you then. Think we have found the real delusional one.
     
  11. fartsy
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    fartsy Skelosaurus

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    craven is pretty strong for lv100 weapon (^:

    but yeah difference between craven and green sleve is relatively small, especially on apple, and depends on other stat gears. Dragon shiner is def closer to green sleve than craven is to nisrock tho x)
     
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  12. brunandes
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    brunandes Windraider

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    I feel this is more caused by the flat wa provided by ammos. If we compare using soul arrow vs subi i.e. zero ammo cost, the difference would not be significant (bm might actually be stronger). But anyway I don't think the gripe of the initial comment is about dpm of bm vs nl so this is not very relevant.
     
  13. fartsy
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    fartsy Skelosaurus

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    yeah what i wanted to point out is the 7 luk from craven is very nice and other classes don’t get that benefit. Swords, spears, bow/xbow, most daggers dont come with main stats
     
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  14. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Do you have reading problems or something
     
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  15. Ferluci
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    Ferluci Zakum Retired Staff

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  16. brunandes
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    brunandes Windraider

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    Yea I have problem reading what you write because it always makes no sense.
     
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  17. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    So many I keep forgetting
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    Ladies please can you kindly do this somewhere else
     
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  18. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    The value of 1 attack isn't at all universal and trying to compare damage between "equal" weapons only undoes any butthurt Night Lord arguments. It's all whinging if one doesn't understand the nature of scaling in the game. Doing the math dispels any conjecture. If anyone wants to claim that NLs are bad in the face of all contrary points then they should prove it instead of talking out of their asses.

    Let's start with a baseline of gears to compare, and their relatively accurate DPM outputs.

    We'll start with some absolute garbage tier attackers, utilizing a 61 attack craven and comparing it to a 110 attack Nisrock. We'll give the NL some ilbis for 27 attack, and both players will have a 3 attack cape and 10 attack gloves, and have them on coke pills for 15 attack. The bowman will have an additional 10 attack from Bow Expert, along with 40 additional stats from secondary requirements. They're both around level 160, though God only knows how they managed to make it this far using only trash they found on the FM floor.

    This NL will have 116 attack and 900 luk, while the BM will have 148 attack and 940 dex and 100 str.

    Night Lord average DPM:
    (900 * 3.75) * (116 / 100) * [(.35 * 1.5) + (.65 * 3.9)] * 3 * 1.5 * 100
    = 5.39mil dpm

    Bowmaster average DPM:
    {[(3.4 * 940 + 100) + (3.4 * 940 * .81 + 100)] / 2} * (148 / 100) * [(.35 * 1.0) + (.65 * 3.4)] * 500
    = 5.668mil dpm

    So the absolute bottom of the barrel for characters has the NL at 95% of a BM, but that advantage quickly dissolves in the presence of weapon defense, another Night Lord advantage. Now the most important part of this hinges on a couple of factors, and that comes from the fact that attack and stats can be isolated - and the value they add to classes isn't universal. If you were to add 10 attack to this garbage NL, their DPM would increase by 8.6%, while 10 attack on the BM will increase their DPS by 6.7%. This means that each attack the NL receives at this point is worth roughly 28% more than it is for the BM, and while this value slowly diminishes as more and more attack is gained, functionally what we have is NLs eventually requiring less gear to reach the same DPM levels as BMs. Their gear can be more expensive because the DPM you're gaining from it is relatively cheaper compared to alternative classes, and before the mid game even happens there comes a point where the NLs DPM will be greater than the BMs, all while utilizing cheaper gears.

    The advantage also exists in stat gains. 5 luk for a NL is more valuable than 5 dex on a BM. If isolated in the same way and adding 25 to the stats, the NL will see a 2.77% gain in DPM while the BM will only see a 2.57% increase. So every stat a NL receives is worth roughly 8% more than a stat on a BM.

    This is the nearly unparalleled advantage that NLs have over other classes, only being competitive with buccaneers, and it's in the universal truth of massive scaling. You don't need to buy nearly so much, as what you buy is valued more.
     
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  19. Isomeride
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    Isomeride King Slime

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    Okay - so clearly no one cares about the HP challenge as I went through this thread, but I'd appreciate it if some clarification could be given on this new "bonus HP pool" mechanism.

    1. Previously, we saw a chart published on the base HP to be granted after completing each tier for respective class. Is that chart deprecated now?

    2. How is the "bonus HP" calculated after completing each tier? Let's use an example to clarify:

    I am a NL at level 126, unwashed, with base HP at 3,239. I don't quite remember, but suppose my base HP was 2,700 when I was at level 100. The original chart indicates that for completing tier 1 challenge, as a NL my base HP would be boosted to 3,200. So in this case, if I complete the tier 1 challenge after it is officially released, do I get:

    a. 0 bonus HP in the pool (since my current base HP 3,239 > 3,200 - if this is the case, I wonder if this would penalize those who are unwashed and anticipating the HP Challenge system, but only to realize that they have overleveled to their own disadvantage. As in this case, ppl would be best off if they complete the challenge right at lvl 100, 110 and so on so forth)
    b. 500 bonus HP in the pool (if calculated retroactively, my base HP at lv. 100 was 2,700 so I would gain 3,200-2,700=500 - feels unlikely to me, as players would be incentivised to only take out bonus HP once they complete all tiers upto lv. 180, which defeats the purpose of the HP Challenge system which intends to enable players to participate in contents since lv. 100)
    c. Something else (how would it be calculated? Some fixed amount of HP for each tier regardless of when you complete the challenge and what your base HP is/was?)

    The custom questline is wonderful and I truly enjoyed it so far. As the Halloween patch is coming soon (hopefully), it would be great to have some clarity on what to expect XD.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2023
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  20. Pasta
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    Pasta Game Developer Staff Member Game Developer

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    The bonus HP from the challenges aims to bring your HP to the specified threshold amount at the threshold level; that is, as a NL, you would reach 3200 HP if you gained the bonus at level 100.
    The calculation keeps track of the level difference from the threshold: if you claim the bonus HP for tier 1 at level 120, your actual amount is calculated as [3200 HP at level 100 + X HP for leveling up from 100 to 120]. You will not lose out on the gain if you overlevel the specific threshold level.

    The "bonus HP pool" is simply a definition for the available HP that you can claim from the challenges. The original (deprecated) system would force you to opt in/out of the HP gain right after you completed tier 1, which had the downsides of both potentially scaring away players who were not 100% sure to commit to the no-washing route, and to prevent washed players from at least playing the questlines as normal game content.
    Now, you are free to claim the HP any time after having completed at least one challenge tier.
    The first time you claim the HP is when you'll be required to opt into the no-washing route; after that, you can keep claiming HP whenever you have more of it available (after completing extra tiers). It gives more freedom to players.

    If you're interested in the actual formulas and variables used, we made available a spreadsheet that can be copied for personal testing: link
    Also, in case you'd rather have a quicker visual reference, Rosa in Lith Harbor has an option to display your potential HP gains, that are calculated in the same way.
    [​IMG]
     
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