The buff Paladins need

Let me preface this thread by stating that the buff I think Paladins need are geared towards the content more-so than the class itself.

As it currently stands, Paladins output a raw single target dummy dpm that is by far superior to our fellow warriors and other melee single target attackers. As a class that’s designed around our single target, single hit skill, blast, the raw dummy DPM numbers support us in being the number 1 melee single target attacker. In terms of single target ability, we only fall short against ranged characters. Given the ease of washing a paladin relative to ranged classes, this, in my opinion, is perfectly fine.

The Paladin’s high single target damage is balanced out by their relatively weak cleave potential compared to Heroes/DKs.

As such I argue a core identity of the Paladin is that it is the melee class which outputs the most single target damage out of all melee attackers. And this forms the basis of what I am going to focus on below.

The problem lies in that Paladins are unable to output anywhere near their projected DPM in relevant content in this game, and are hence unable to fulfill their role as the most solid melee single target attacker in the game. I define relevance here as content that is highly in demand by the majority of the populace, and is also the most lucrative content in the game. As it stands in the current climate this extends to: Pink Bean, Horntail, CwkPQ.

Horntail and CWKPQ aside, I want to make the focus of this thread the Paladin’s performance in Pink Bean. The reason for this is due to the lucrative nature of pink bean (MW30, facestompers, timeless weapons), it’ll arguably one of the most, if not the most, relevant content in the near future. As such I want to set straight the Paladin’s position in the bean.

For those who are unaware, the pink bean boss fight can be separated into two major phases: 1) statues phase (within which there are 5 different sub-phases), and 2) the actual pink bean fight.

The paladin’s performance during the statues phase is limited by particular periods of downtime as a result of leaving ranged dps to focus bird statues down. A Paladin has to get up close and personal to deal damage, and could hence thereby trigger bird aggro and lead to damage reflections or mass sed’s, as such when ranged is focusing birds, the paladin normally stays far away until the ranged finishes their job. However this particular downside extends to most melee attackers as well and as such this is a problem that melee attackers in general face, rather than just the Paladin.

The Paladin’s performance during the pink bean fight, however, is a different story. DPM analysis places the paladin’s single target damage above all other melee attackers and below ranged dps whilst under either Holy Charge or Fire charge. Unfortunately pink bean is resistant to both holy and fire charge, and the only element Paladins are able to use which isn’t resisted by the bean is Lightning charge. In terms of single target damage we output less than Heroes brandishing while using lightning charge.

As mentioned above, a core identity of the Paladin is to output the highest single target damage out of all melee attackers, however since we’re resorted to using lightning charge this is no longer the case.

The buff I am therefore proposing is to remove holy resistance from pink bean. This would allow paladins to use holy charge on pink bean and not suffer from having to use an inferior charge for no particular reason.

Thinking about it deeply, for what reason does pink bean actually need holy resistance. Archmages suffer no downside from pink bean as it is not resistant to either lightning or poison which is their main single target dps element. Every physical attacker, including paladins, are hit by physical resistance. However Paladins get knocked further by holy resistance and are left to use a subpar charge. Holy resistance also has a further effect by rendering bishops into res mules as they aren’t even able to angel ray.

As such the balance Paladins need to increase their relevance in crucial content both now and in the future is to remove holy resistance from pink bean rather than any changes to the underlying skills at the Paladin’s disposal. This would increase the paladin’s relevance in what is arguably the most relevant content in the near future, and also elevate bishops from being mere res mules.


TL;DR - Remove holy resistance from pink bean.

 

I’ve also been discussing with other paladins that the alternative if for whatever reason holy resistance cannot be removed would be to buff lightning charge. However this would obviously have consequences in other content where lightning charge prevails (neo Tokyo, for example) and as such I still consider removing holy resistance to be the best option.

 

What.


Simply because in other content we do fine even if there are improvements that can be suggested. We may perform subpar compared to other classes but we do hold our ground.

All your suggestions involve buffing paladins in other content where we don't necessarily need a buff. The only place we need a buff is in Pink Bean as it makes no sense a dedicated cleaving class can deal more single target dpm than a single target class. As such a holy resistance change is better than any of the two you're proposing.

 

No offense but it would probably help if you've either a) run with paladins in pink bean or b) actually play a paladin in pink bean before throwing statements like this around.

Also aggro doesn't work like that. There's a reason why people go "Buccs pls barrage" and not "Paladins pls blast" when trying to make PB face right. Blast does absolutely nothing because we don't hit the 140k dmg threshold for kb, with lightning charge or even with holy charge. All removing holy charge does is it allows us to use our main elemental charge.

The viability of archmages at the very least is better than both heroes and paladins. I understand you're an I/L main but understand how classes perform relative to each other. In the statue phase sure without the physical resistance arch mages deal perhaps the least single target dmg out of all the attacking classes. But the statues phase are like the preheads in HT and only make up for 1/3 of the entire run and they shine hardest during the body phase. Even if holy resistance were nerfed you'd still be wanted (in an all equal environment) over a hero and paladin because you'd still have the capability to white (i.e. deal the most dmg in the party that's dealing the most dmg). If you call this barely viable then I honestly don't know what you want. I can guarantee you even if holy resistance was removed and paladins could use holy charge we would not be whiting that bean.

I don't think you understand what I mean by res, or perhaps a res and shield mule.

Ask your own bishops this - what do they do when fighting the bean aside from ressing and shielding. Are they attacking? And if they are do you think they're doing any form of considerable damage? You could pretty much have a 150 bishop go into pink bean as long as they have max holy shield and res. Sure they'd take longer to kill mini beans but during the pink bean fight when they only spawn every now and then it really makes no difference.

In other words all I'm trying to say is it makes no sense that a 15x bishop with barely any gear investment is almost equally as viable as a 19x bishop with a good ton of gear investment because the key things you've stated a bishop to do ( shielding, ressing, moving into TL parties ) are doable by some 15x bishop. In fact if you had an archmage + a bunch of 15x bishops you wouldn't even need to worry about mini beans.

This works but it's a buff to I/ls as well via ifrit for a class that already suffers no penalty when fighting the bean. I see no reason why they should be buffed further when archmages already have the potential to white the bean.

 

It's not conclusive enough to say as we don't know to what degree ora out'dpmed the other people in his party and whether it'd also be possible for an I/L to do it.

But if it was by a wide enough degree then if Ora can do it, an I/L can do it too.

And if, and a big IF, buffing ifrit makes them comparable with fire mages, how do you consider this fair in the context of things when I/L's already have a superior bossing experience elsewhere in the game? Think NT, mainly. And pretty much every boss that is immune to poison.

 

It's more about class identity.

Paladins are a single target class whereas heroes are a cleaving class, so for a hero to deal more dmg 1vs1 than a paladin makes little to no sense.

Every class has a role to fufil and, for example, heroes are amazing at cleaving cwk. You wouldn't really get a paladin there if you had a choice. Not like we can single target there either since we'd be a) in range for pirate dispel, b) useless against mage

The state of HT depends on how the cancels work and what changes staff decide to make to the cancels. Last patch cleave were great, this patch not so much.

Then you have a single target boss fight where for some reason a single target class now deals less single target dmg than a cleaving class.

it's not so much paladin vs hero statues paladins better and then paladin vs hero pb heroes better, but it's more how a single target class in the statue phase deals more single target dmg than a cleaving class (makes sense), but then said single target class now deals less dmg than a cleaving class during the body phase (which is 2/3 of the fight). It's not just against heroes but also against say shads (with the iframes, avoid that they have) and also theoretically against dk's if they can zerk all the way through.

Even buccs deal more single target dpm than paladins and they have much more versatility in pink bean.

 

I bring your attention to the following past balance change threads where it was clear that the intention of nerfing HH last year was to segment the Paladin's identity as a single target attacker. And that the staff, in the past, have acknowledged that paladins are a single target attacker.

Now comes a boss where the entire majority of the fight is single target yet paladins are dealing subpar single target damage relative to other cleave.

https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/summer-2020-balance-changes-explained.33652/

https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/anniversary-2020-skill-changes-explained.30321/

 

That's just how things are done here for whatever reason.

For some strange reason when people talk about paladin dpm it's a comparison against other warriors whether single target or cleave despite the identity as a single target class.

That being said, these are two separate but slightly interlinked topics.

A) Does it make sense for a paladin, a single target attacker, to deal less damage than a cleave class on a single target boss.
B) How does a paladin, a single target class, compare against other single target classes.

The point of this thread is centered around point A. Point B can be a discussion too but Point A is the primary focus.

I'm no expert in putting together DPM charts and whatnot but it surprises me that no one has put together a chart of single target classes to see how the Paladin stacks up against sairs, NL's, archers.

That being said, it's definitely at the bottom. Remains the question of how 'bottom' is it relative to other single target classes.