1. Hello!

    First of all, welcome to MapleLegends! You are currently viewing the forums as a guest, so you can only view the first post of every topic. We highly recommend registering so you can be part of our community.

    By registering to our forums you can introduce yourself and make your first friends, talk in the shoutbox, contribute, and much more!

    This process only takes a few minutes and you can always decide to lurk even after!

    - MapleLegends Administration-
  2. Experiencing disconnecting after inserting your login info? Make sure you are on the latest MapleLegends version. The current latest version is found by clicking here.
    Dismiss Notice

Information Summer 2020 Balance Changes [Explained]

Discussion in 'Update Notes' started by Nise, Aug 31, 2020.

  1. Nise
    Offline

    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

    2,059
    693
    500
    Jul 5, 2017
    Male
    Korea
    10:10 AM
    NoraONE
    Corsair
    189
    Sweetdreams
    First, quick apologies for a delayed explanation post, the timing of the patch wasn't favorable this time around for me timezone wise (the main post was written up in advance). Before we delve into the explanations, we'd like to reiterate that our balance philosophy revolves around three major pillars: 1) transparency in reasoning, 2) preserving class identity during changes, 3) making all classes rewarding and viable in their own unique merit. All that said, there is an implicit fourth pillar, which is listening to player base feedback, and we are definitely all ears in cases we missed something! Alright with that said, let's jump into it.

    [Boss Changes: Horntail's Separate Seduce Cooldowns]
    Horntail is now coded to be more GMS-like, with each seduce having a separate timer (as it was in original GMS). This means separate cooldowns for left/right/jump/mass left/mass right seduce.
    Over the years, we've tried our best to make Horntail as similar to GMS as possible. Sometimes these changes take a while because it is ultimately code related and it's up to our brilliant devs to figure out how to make this work. We've gone through many iterations so far, with our earliest iteration being one with random seduces, no mass dispel, and no buffs from wings. We've made lots of progress since then and one of the last things missing from OUR Horntail was the lack of separate cooldowns for each seduce skill.

    This was part of a bigger scale change to all bosses and how they use skills. Hopefully it'll introduce some interesting changes to how Horntail is run. Best of luck Maplers!

    [Boss Changes: Horntail's Arm Range Revert]
    The range for Horntail arm aggro was increased previously due to our seduce limitations. With seduce being changed, we've reverted the arm aggro changes. No more pesky mana drains! (at least once you've crossed the ab line)

    [Boss Changes: Separate Skill Cooldowns + Skill cast delay]
    • Bosses in general (eg. Horntail, Zakum, Scarlion, Targa, etc) are coded to be more GMS-like
      • Skills can only be cast every 3 seconds
      • Each skill has a separate timer (noted by the seduce change)
      • Magic cancel cannot be cast while in weapon cancel and vice versa (should fix consecutive cancels)
    The crux of this change will probably be less spammy skills (caused by a proper restriction to how often a skill can be cast) AND magic cancels and weapon cancels finally rotating properly! No more 17 weapon cancels in a row! Woooot!

    [Boss Changes: Improved Aggro]
    • Improved aggro, to once again, be more GMS-like
      • Aggro can change once every few seconds for non-auto aggro mob & bosses (should no longer constantly switch aggro targets, and therefore less sliding)
      • Improved auto-aggro targeting/attacking (where it will start targeting when you are in aggro range, opposed to just being in the map)
    Tired of sliding bosses? Tired of a boss suddenly becoming unpinned? Tired of aggro switching back and forth for some reason? Well worry no longer (hopefully)! With aggro changes becoming more GMS-like, and fixing some coding issues, aggro shouldn't be constantly switching targets and stay glued to one individual until the next time server checks for aggro (which is every few seconds). Big Foot duos rejoice!

    [Boss Changes: Multiclienting Re-Enabled]
    Our test period for the multiclienting at bosses has finally ended. It was an interesting run, but we've come to the conclusion that while the function (multiclient block) is useful for certain things (eg. events), bosses shouldn't have multiclient restricted. We do apologize for how long it took for us to finalize these things, but they also came hand in hand with some other changes. Thanks for all the feedback during this test period however!

    [Bug Fixes: Speed Infusion]
    Speed Infusion bug fixed, where mages were able to benefit from the skill (note in GMS, SI never worked on mages as attack speed was calculated based off casting speed and not weapon speed - which SI directly targets "Uses HP and MP to temporarily increase the attacking speed of a weapon")
    The SI bug was one that had been mentioned multiple times over the years as something that would eventually be fixed (the other notable bug pending fixing being the Shadow Star bug). This is because SI was never supposed to work on mages, and the only reason this had happened was due to coding errors.

    By fixing SI, we acknowledge that we'll affect a number of things. We curb the overall exp gained by leeching and promote better mage play. Higher gear should net you higher returns. Simply having an SI mule shouldn't compensate for the lack of better gear (or enough gear to 1-hit or 2-hit things). Additionally, SI changes will indirectly help the economy, seeing that SI makes you attack more often, eat up more pots, aka more mesos disappearing from the economy.

    [Bug Fixes:Holy Shield where mages were able to Holy Shield to prevent seduce]
    Holy Shield was unfortunately a bug, which a number of players had brought up to us as not being GMS-like. With the other code-related bug fixes, we sought to fix this as well. HOWEVER, after our initial balance change post and the feedback garnered from it, we've made the decision to KEEP Holy Shield as it is (it WILL prevent seduce). It'll no longer be classified as a bug, but an actual feature/skill change of MapleLegends.

    This is due to the fact that unlike other bugs (eg. SI, Shadow Star), we feel that Holy Shield adds a unique facet of skillful counterplay to boss fights. It allows distinguished Bishops to make the most of their kit, and thereby make it more challenging and engaging for Bishops. Thank you to all the players that provided meaningful feedback that helped us reach this decision! ^^

    [Skill Changes: Critical Throw Revert]
    Critical Throw for assassins reverted (crit chance reverted to 50% along with crit damage reverted to 200%)
    Critical Throw was originally changed to better SE-less gameplay, however it negatively effected non-bossing gameplay. As promised previously, critical throw will be reverted as of this patch~

    See: https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/revert-the-changes-to-critical-throw.31035/

    With critical throw as an example and Holy Shield, do note that staff listens carefully to player feedback. If you have any suggestions or concerns, please feel free to do so on our forums! ^^

    [Skill Changes: Marksman Revert]
    Marksman expert reverted (reverted to 90% mastery and 10 weapon attack)
    We had previously gotten reports of mastery not working as intended on marksman. The numbers were also a tad bit higher than we had originally calculated. We'll be revisiting the status of MMs after this patch. Please let us know how it feels after you've played with it on live servers! ^^

    [Skill Changes: Buccaneer Avoidability Formula Rework]
    Buccaneer avoidability formula reworked to = 0.25 * DEX + 0.2 * STR > 0.25 * DEX + 0.225 * STR
    We intended the avoidability formula change to be a buff to buccaneer main's avoidability and a tuning down of dex buccs to be roughly the same as normal buccaneers. However, due to some calculation errors, it led to both types of buccs being hit by slight nerfs. The avoidability formula will be changed to: 0.25 * DEX + 0.225 *STR (will probably be changed the following patch, please bear with it for a while if it doesn't make it to summer)

    Sorry for the confusion!

    [Skill Changes: Heaven's Hammer Damage Reduced For Bosses]
    Heaven's Hammer damage reduced for bosses from 199k to 50k (skill still works in full effect doing 199k to mobs)
    While the meta has resulted in Heaven's Hammer becoming the primary skill of a Paladin, this was never intended, and we are trying to return the class back to where they should be (in terms of class identity), which is as a single target melee attacker. Over the years, we've made countless buffs to Paladins' single-target skills: 1) blast damage increase, 2) element charge damage increase, 3) horizontal range increase for blast. All these changes have made a Paladin an excellent single target DPS class, but with HH as it was, it also made them an excellent cleave DPS class as well. Thereby undermining the class identity of the other cleave classes (dark knights, heros).

    There was also the undeniable issue of HH mules. The game should reward players that invested time/effort to get better as well as improve their gears. We'll keep an eye on this and see how it affects actual Paladin mains, so we look forward to hearing back from you~

    Also note that the DPM comparison in this chart never took into consideration Heaven's Hammer damage!

    [​IMG]

    [Skill Changes: Mage Single Target Changes]
    • Paralyze buffed from 240% to 290% basic attack
    • Chain Lightning buffed from 210% to 260% basic attack
    • Angel Ray buffed from 240% to 340% basic attack
    We're trying our hand at some single target mage buffs, especially with the Horntail and SI changes. Angel Ray welcomed a bigger buff since Bishops don't have elemental amplification and the numbers seemed quite drastically low.

    [​IMG]

    [Boss ETC Price Change]
    Based off the one-of-a-kind boss equip discussions, we've adjusted NPCable ETC prices dropped from Zakum, Horntail, Neo Tokyo bosses & mobs.

    See discussion on: https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/boss-equips-removing-one-of-a-kind-feedback.33304/
    We decided that removing the one-of-a-kind label seemed to have been pretty divisive amongst the player base, due to the impacts it would have on the scroll market and the sale of services as well. A secondary idea that was floated around by our players was to buff the ETC prices instead so that we can achieve a similar outcome. As such, we decided to switch the trash ETCs to match the price of the boss equips dropped from the bosses. Such as Zakum Diamond being sold for the same price as the Zakum Helmet (500,000 mesos) and the Nine Spirit's Egg being sold for the same price as Horntail Pendant (300,000 mesos).

    We'll keep an eye on just how much this affects our economy and we're looking forward to some player feedback on this as well~

    [Conclusion]
    There weren't that many "skill" changes this time around, but a number of changes that ultimately affect the balance/meta of the game. These changes as well as the big Mid-Summer Bonanza coming our way is done with the best intention of players in mind! Sometimes things work out differently in practice than in theory, so please let us know your thoughts on the forums. Hope you enjoy the event when it goes live! ^^
     
    • Informative x 17
    • Like x 7
    • Great Work x 6
    • Agree x 2
    • Disagree x 1
    • Funny x 1
  2. aaronis
    Offline

    aaronis Slimy

    248
    127
    230
    Jul 5, 2017
    Male
    6:10 PM
    Shadower
    200
    Beaters
    poggers holy shield and normal buccs saved
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Funny Funny x 2
  3. Esmo
    Offline

    Esmo Pac Pinky

    191
    6
    186
    Nov 8, 2019
    Male
    4:10 AM
    Esmo
    Beginner
    UpperLeveL
    what about the alchemist skill? the only purpose of the night lord is bossing,did u ever tried to hunt cards/grind as a nightlord? it’s horrible
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
    • Funny Funny x 2
  4. CervezaSanta
    Offline

    CervezaSanta King Slime

    25
    7
    41
    Jul 29, 2017
    Male
    7:10 PM
    CervezaSanta
    Bishop, Night Lord, Buccaneer
    180
    Vivid
    Happy to see that you reconsidered the holy shield change, I'm now excited to see how the sed changes are gonna play out.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Friendly Friendly x 3
    • Funny Funny x 1
  5. xadra
    Offline

    xadra Capt. Latanica

    395
    196
    279
    Jun 6, 2017
    Male
    9:10 AM
    Adra
    Paladin
    170
    Divide
    OK I'll start by saying, I don't see why classes need to have only a "primary attacking skill", and not a toolbox of attacks to choose from like buccs and shads do. Is it considered desirable to make paladins a single button attacker like your heroes and NLs, in this already extremely easy-to-play game? Ignoring DPM, ignoring balance, from a gameplay perspective this just does not make sense. I can tell you straight away that even if you buffed Blast to 700% damage to compensate for the "removal" of Hammer at horntail and thus making paladins indisputedly THE most OP single damage class, I would still find it a negative change because the variety of gameplay has been stripped down and playing my character is now much more boring than it already was. There was some planning and positioning involved with using hammer at HT, now literally all you must do is hold blast and jumping back on the rock when you get KB'd.

    Ultimately I get that it was necessary to decimate HH mules once and for all and also bring Paladin damage more back in line with other attackers. But there will definitely be a lot of transitioning pains that a key element of our game plan was just outright stripped away, especially when that skill has been working that way for ages. It's just pure feelsbad.

    But really good job on not going through with the seduce-h.shield interaction change.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Funny Funny x 1
  6. PrettyLights
    Offline

    PrettyLights Timer

    112
    40
    115
    Oct 11, 2017
    6:10 PM
    upload_2020-8-31_0-53-46.png

    Damn shadowers are weaker than I thought
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Funny Funny x 1
  7. KaiParker
    Offline

    KaiParker Red Snail

    7
    3
    26
    Aug 17, 2020
    Male
    6:10 PM
    avoKAIdoz
    Warrior
    Hey Nise - Really appreciate the insight on your thought process in these changes. I'm sure I speak for a lot of us when I say that this level of transparency really helps with my Maple Legends engagement.

    I'm a Paladin main, so I won't speak on the other points for fear of minimizing any issues they have, but I do want to address the Paladin issue now, since it's top of everyone's mind (you mentioned that you'll keep an eye of suggestions, but if we wait a while on this without addressing it, the subject will just lose momentum; I don't mean to be harsh but 70% of the post in your last thread was about this nerf and I don't think you addressed it with the attention it needed).

    For starters, I think that you and the balance team have done great in terms of Paladin class identity, and you've turned a complete meme class from v62 GMS to something that is thoroughly enjoyable; every single paladin on the server will acknowledge this. You're right in that the buffs to the single target DPS have made Pallies one of, if not the best DPS in the game, but most of us believe that this should not justify nerfing HH to the ground (some will argue that numbers haven't even been tested yet, but we have already done envelope math in the previous thread). You posted a single target DPS chart, which evidently points to Pallies being #1 (even without HH), but Heroes are not far behind. Now if we add a Melee Cleave DPS in millions chart, I'm sure it would show Heroes and DKs way above Pallies, and you would understand why all Paladin mains are throwing our fits.

    One great suggestion we've already had in the thread is that HH should scale with weapon attack, so that HH mules aren't rewarded with just maxing HH and not gearing; this suggestion came from both aisles of thinking: from those trying to justify the nerf and those that hate it. I bring this up because I feel like this suggestion deserved recognition in this post, but it hadn't, so I'm afraid that within the next few months, this conversation will get lost with other things that come up.

    All paladin mains will agree that HH mules are an issue and must be addressed, and that HH itself should have been nerfed as well, but a 75% damage reduction seems drastic. I'm perfectly willing to accept reasoning for this, but there was none provided. Additionally, you and the team made the conscious decision to nerf the cooldown from 10s to 15s prior, but increase the damage; now we're stuck with weaker damage and a 15s cooldown?

    I want to acknowledge that I may be completely wrong when the we're able to test the patch live, and I will be the first to admit it if I am, but I just want this to stay top of mind for the few Paladin mains out there. Thanks for all of your hard work!
     
    • Agree Agree x 27
    • Like Like x 1
  8. aaronis
    Offline

    aaronis Slimy

    248
    127
    230
    Jul 5, 2017
    Male
    6:10 PM
    Shadower
    200
    Beaters
    NLs are op lol if anything they should get nerfed more, and idk it’s not too bad grinding cards with them, the higher level mobs are obv annoying but getting up to like tier 8 was pretty fun and lul grinding on a NL good joke
     
    • Agree Agree x 11
    • Funny Funny x 1
  9. LiquidOoze
    Offline

    LiquidOoze Mixed Golem

    154
    45
    168
    Feb 7, 2018
    9:10 PM
    Only took two years to realize cancels were bugged. https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/scar-targa.23181/#post-170174
     
    • Funny Funny x 8
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  10. Huiae
    Offline

    Huiae Headless Horseman

    892
    865
    386
    Aug 1, 2015
    Female
    Seoul, Korea
    10:10 AM
    Verdict
    Bishop
    WeenieHutJrs
    W.....wait, Wasnt the only purpose we make NL, is FJ?!
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 2
  11. Esmo
    Offline

    Esmo Pac Pinky

    191
    6
    186
    Nov 8, 2019
    Male
    4:10 AM
    Esmo
    Beginner
    UpperLeveL
    yes let’s nerf a class where people already invested billions of mesos on claws and gear smart thinking
     
    • Funny Funny x 8
    • Agree Agree x 7
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  12. Waeri
    Offline

    Waeri Horny Mushroom

    42
    62
    61
    Jul 22, 2017
    Female
    9:10 PM
    Waeri
    Bishop
    190
    Vivid
    very informative & thank you for hearing us bishies out and keeping HS NiseNise + staff blushmush
    now time to teach my boomer bishop self how to keep up with 8 different timers wackomush
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Great Work Great Work x 2
  13. Althariisa
    Offline

    Althariisa Slimy

    241
    57
    230
    Jul 17, 2018
    Female
    10:10 PM
    Tauriel
    Dark Knight
    200
    Honor
    At last, an information post. thanks for that.
     
  14. AioriaX
    Offline

    AioriaX Selkie Jr.

    211
    89
    210
    Jul 25, 2017
    Male
    9:10 AM
    AioriaX
    Night Lord
    200
    Beaters
    S>Card Hunting Service
    I've been hunting on my Lv 200 NL :p

    Card Hunting Acknowledgement.png
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Funny Funny x 3
    • Creative Creative x 1
  15. Esmo
    Offline

    Esmo Pac Pinky

    191
    6
    186
    Nov 8, 2019
    Male
    4:10 AM
    Esmo
    Beginner
    UpperLeveL
    no need,my bishop carried me to tier 9. 12 to go
     
  16. AioriaX
    Offline

    AioriaX Selkie Jr.

    211
    89
    210
    Jul 25, 2017
    Male
    9:10 AM
    AioriaX
    Night Lord
    200
    Beaters
    Also I don't think grinding is that bad.
    I grinded from Lv 0 - 12x and never bought leech.
    Bossed from 12x - 18x and actually I grinded in 5-6 with a FP mage-partner and still get 70m+ eph (91m eph was my highest recorded in grinding with event exp buff) in a 2-man party to 200 after clearing daily bosses

    I guess unless washing INT-lord
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  17. fengstar
    Offline

    fengstar Orange Mushroom

    33
    6
    48
    Apr 21, 2020
    Male
    the bay
    6:10 PM
    Diggy
    Night Lord
    195
    Twice
    Excited to grind my hermit again after this patch :shamemb:
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  18. OP
    OP
    Nise
    Offline

    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

    2,059
    693
    500
    Jul 5, 2017
    Male
    Korea
    10:10 AM
    NoraONE
    Corsair
    189
    Sweetdreams
    That isssss indeed the hope for the fix yes! We tested some other bosses like Nameless, Big Foot, and Scarlion, but testing scenarios always differ a bit from reality. So let us know if it stops sliding around!

    These explanation posts are made with the hopes of being more transparent to you the players! So I really appreciate the positive responses towards these posts. Guess moving forward, it'll be mandatory to every single update... [​IMG] (more work for me oh no)

    I uhh... honestly speaking didn't see any of those pots in the last thread LOL because a lot of it came after I had already started writing the post... (this post started being written pretty much as soon as I woke up and got to work). It just took... hmmm 9 am to 4.30 pm so half a day to properly sit down and write this.. welp... (along with other work stuff I have to do)

    As an ex-Pally main, I do understand the frustrations of single target vs cleave concerns a lot actually. It is definitely something I've looked into previously, perhaps buffing the single target more so that Pallies are fine without needing to resort to any sort of cleave. The problem became the ceiling was too low... as in it took very little just hit the damage cap, and Pallies just aren't able to scale as high because the 600% and 175% multipliers lead to 199k really quickly.

    As for the scaling with weapon attack, it was definitely and idea that was floated around even amongst staff/balance team. We did run into some issues with feasibility, as Heaven's Hammer is a hard coded thing rather than something we can adjust with ease. Going past the coding hurdle, it became an issue of implementation, as in just how much should it scale per skill level + stats. There was also an issue of thematic consistency. Heaven's Hammer is a skill that's supposed to bring everything down to 1 HP. Of course, it doesn't work that way for bosses. If we were to change it to a scaling method, it wouldn't bring mobs down to 1 HP. It could, but then we'd need to code an exception for bosses on top of that...

    There were lots of factors and considerations at play, but currently it seems this was the best alternative. I hope that suffices as an explanation!
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  19. MIGHTYshoni
    Offline

    MIGHTYshoni Slime

    22
    10
    30
    Mar 26, 2020
    Male
    9:10 AM
    Shonii
    Marksman
    160
    Pacifists
    Fellow MMs, guess the numbers were a "tad bit higher" than intended. Hence the revert I see. Cool.

    Once again, no details regarding the utility changes towards Marksmen so as to improve its class identity as a supportive archer end game.

    Since the anniversary patch, there's been many discussions on distinguishing MMs, recognising that more features should be introduced to set themselves apart from BMs. Yet, till date zero responses from the staffs regarding this topic despite the many suggestions and inputs provided by both OG and new players (some of them don't even play an MM). After seeing changes to critical throw and holy shield, I am convinced that the staffs do consider player based feedback as the 4th pillar during balance changes.

    1. Snipe ===> penetrating weapon cancels, having certain (10-15%) to dispell weapon cancels in bosses will be such a welcomed feature. Given that total duration of a weapon cancel lasts 40-45 seconds, this will mean up to 8-9 snipes can be done. Imo this skill can have an attached dispell or penetrate feature. Currently it just deals '1' crit damage.

    2. Piercing arrow ===> Reduced charging time, remove deadzone i.e the distance to cast else you hit the mob with your xbow. Only normal way to use this is by comboing DB-icearrow-piercingarrow. Attempting to use this currently in HT is terrible but if corrected I believe it can be an option for MMs to shoot past wings+ 2 arms when Heads are cancelled.

    3. Blind ==> IF only it applies to Bosses. Added utility for everyone in the raid group. Currently it's just an obsolete skill that MMs scroll past not knowing it's even there in their skill book.

    Doesn't feel very rewarding when your class defining skill is so underrated. Snipe and HH. Both of this skills can make or break a class. Slightly off topic but to my Pallies brethren, the HH change felt like a rip off. The solution to address the HH mules isn't nerfing the overall 200k dmg cap of HH but rather scale it off gear stats or base level. In my honest opinion, a main pally with decent gears and time invested shouldn't be given the same treatment as a mule, he/she should be well deserving of a 200k X6 HT parts HH swing.

    NiseNise jootajoota AlyoshaAlyosha I hope you acknowledge this. Tyvm
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  20. KaiParker
    Offline

    KaiParker Red Snail

    7
    3
    26
    Aug 17, 2020
    Male
    6:10 PM
    avoKAIdoz
    Warrior
    Thanks for the response and for the more thorough explanation. It sounds like you made a concerted effort and this was the best course of action. I’m happy you addressed all the points, and although I’m disappointed that this is our best alternative for the time being, it makes more sense. I hope that the Paladin subject might still stay on your radar for the short term, even as you become busier with other bugs; there aren’t too many pally mains so representation is thin.

    I do think expectations are unjustifiably high for you and the team and don’t mean to apply more unnecessary pressure, so thanks again for everything!
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 2

Share This Page