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The Current State of Onyx Apples

Discussion in 'Accepted' started by Piety, Mar 4, 2018.

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  1. Piety
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    Piety (ㆆᴗㆆ)/ Retired Staff

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    1:27 AM
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    Hey everyone; this is something we've been meaning to bring up for a while now.
    It's a bit of a touchy subject, obviously. It affects weddings, bossing, ''vote2win'' and other things.

    As you've probably noticed in the recent months, we've been pretty aggressive with our nerfs to Cash Gachapon (while buffing Hunting Gachapon, in an effort to encourage playing to earn money instead of just voting for Gach to fund yourself. The other biggest offender would be Weddings. They are completely effortless, and nets you a guaranteed ~50m+ in Apples... if you don't crash, wasting your NX. This is something that we want to change or remove.
    APQ is not being released in the foreseeable future, so it's not a solution. We've heard plenty of ideas/feedback about Apples and how they make bossing too easy/efficient in their current state.
    How would you guys like this to be changed? What do you think of Apples as they are? These are some of the things/suggestions I've heard over time;
    - Completely remove Apples, or at least until APQ comes out. They are too strong anyway.
    - Have a NPC that sells them at a set (but high) price. Availability could be a problem.
    - Make them drop from Gachapon in tiny stacks.
    - Make them a drop from GPQ Bonus (Would require the crash during the transition to Bonus to be fixed)
    - Have them available for some sort of exchange (Such as Pieces of Time?) or something that would require effort/farming

    Let's discuss this in a civilized manner; I don't doubt that there will be some very varied opinions in the thread. ;)
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  2. maybeandy
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    maybeandy Stone Golem

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    I'm against the idea of taking them out from the game. Sounds like a bad idea: I mean how would apples that area currently in stock be handled? The idea of them being used to get around certain parts of the game aren't necessarily overpowered per se, but they existed in the game originally.

    Having them available at an NPC would be nice, and would kill the market, but what different is that from someone else selling 90% of the apples on the market currently?
    It just sets a forced flat price.

    I am in favor of some of the latter ideas though, (GPQ Bonus, Gach, PoT exchange). But with the data you've received, how many? How scarce are you guys ideally trying to make the apples?

    I dont think they need to be any more scarce, I think they're at a decent place in the game. They've saved many HT runs I've been stuck in (namely me being stuck soloing heads for 7 hours), but increasing availability other than just weddings would be nice.
     
    • Agree Agree x 11
  3. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    How about increasing the divorce price?
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  4. Zeretius
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    Zeretius Windraider

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    Imo I wouldn't touch them. Guaranteed 50m in apples 1x per week because the cool down isn't that big of an issue tbh... that equals about 300k meso per hour.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    10:27 PM
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    Mesos for apples would make a good meso sink, but the the other options sound like they could cause some economic anxiety before they're balanced well. Prices already went up, it would suck to see them drop or rise rapidly with different additions being made. I think options 2, 3, and 4 would work best if the price were fixed with option #1.
     
  6. Zebezian
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    Zebezian Master Chronos Retired Staff

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    I think both of these ideas are good. Why not both?

    Further, since you mentioned Pieces of Time, I really do think it would be a great incentive for people to train there or use ToT more if there was some kind of exchange available for the Pieces (whether you want to add Onyx Apples into that mix or not.). Though it's fun to collect PoTs, I would like to see some more love and activity for what is supposed to be an end-game area. Those who have gone there know that getting PoTs to drop is no cake walk.
     
  7. Hyoon
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    Hyoon Zakum Retired Staff

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    But for marrying you gain this amount for doing nothing.
    Also if you are voting purely for apples you would have 15k extra each week, which you could vote on another account and wait 1 more day for another 50m.

    This would be in fact 100m+/8 days while hunting for a few pieces of materials needed to complete the quest.
     
  8. Taida
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    Taida Mixed Golem

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    If apples were removed as a whole, HT probably wouldn't be as profitable in terms of meso/hr since it's also heavily RNG-based unless a lot of heartstoppers were used (affecting heartstoppers prices heavily as well)

    I'd probably rather just sell leech, and not every attacker has a mage so they rely on boss splits for income
    Of course there's already a gap between those that sell leech and don't, but furthering that gap really isn't a good idea, and there's definitely going to be players who feel as if they are being forced into the mage meta
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  9. Jase
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    Jase Mixed Golem

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    I'd rather not do hmwk for 4 hrs instead of 2 every ht run
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  10. flora
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    flora Slime

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    Actually, I wouldn't mind them being taken from weddings- this is coming from someone whos had 9 weddings so far on their main accounts alone and a 10th coming up lol.

    For me at least, I think weddings in game should be for fun ,and because you want to be wed together; not another reason behind it aka for just Onyx Apples. Whenever I had weddings though, I always bought my spouse gifts worth 50-150mil which put me more at loss than actually making anything off of the 6 or 12 apples (if my partner gave me theirs). I have seen people just do it countlessly every week which I know is fine based on the rules ,but just shouldn't be a way of making revenue imo haha.

    Having it added to things such as GPQ I believe is a good idea , and it would actually encourage more friendly competition amongst other guilds / make getting certain ranks more challenging.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  11. Adun Toridas
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    Adun Toridas Red Snail

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    So what exactly is the root issue you want to tackle by making changes to the current system of wedding/apples?

    Is it an economy issue? Balance issue?


    Also, just wanted to note the math issue. 12 apples if you are using a mule to marry. 1 apple = 4 million meso (current average market price). 12 * 4 = 48 mil. Subtract divorce money of 5 mil, 43 million every week?
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Heartiess
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    Heartiess Guest

    6:27 AM
    In terms of the gpq idea - crashes happen just as often (error38 as always) in gpq bonus as in weddings and the time for the bonus stage is extremely small (apples would be extremely rare ??? Unless youd either make the droprate high or the time during bonus stage longer)

    Id like to know how you guys plan to find balance in any of these ideas - take temple of time, mages (il/fp) can farm apples for days, what would be considered a fair "npc" price (would it be similar to current market price? Would that be too op? Or would they be expensive? This would definitely greatly effect the bossing market) -

    I just feel like these ideas are extremely hard to balance and 2 of them make are unfair to certain classes/levels.


    (Sorry for the long post that makes little sense lol pretty tired and typing on my phone)
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  13. Zeretius
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    Zeretius Windraider

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    What's the reason for this sudden nerf idea anyway? can we view a graph of collected data of items being bought and sold/ price per item for the passed month, are the apples massively affecting the economy? If its a balance issue, maybe express the reasoning? (Ht too easy?)
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 2
  14. Lumina
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    Lumina Master Chronos

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    All these comments make it pretty obvious that apple prices can always be controlled by a group/class unless it's coming from an NPC.. let's be honest. It's not like there's a shortage of apples but people trying to raise the prices through the roof making vote2win more apparent than ever. Just put in an npc and put it at a high price. Tbh, that'd limit low dmg attackers from HTing and raise back our book prices again. Anything is way higher than the 2.5mil from last summer. And it's high enough to deter a lot of people from buying a lot, because look how fast apple sales slow down since a CERTAIN people bought up all the apples in the FM and tried to sell it all out for 4.7mil. Everyone just decided to marry some non washing person to get weddings instead LOLLLL
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  15. wokkie
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    wokkie Mushmom

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    7:27 AM
    How about APQ gets coded into the game and the apples would drop at a low rate. this way people have to work for it, wich gives a sense of pride and accomplishment. and you can nerf the drop rate when there are too many apples, cause Kim likes nerfing thingsMapleF3
     
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  16. Fishy
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    Fishy Skelegon Retired Staff

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    i feel like having onyx apples as an award for guild pq would be beneficial.
    - Gives guilds more reason to GuildPQ. (mastery books/scrolls/apples?)
    - have more guilds move up in rankings and takes out old guilds
    -For guildpq, you need a total of 6 guildies to enter. if 1 person dcs. the whole squad leaves. IF you have 10 people enter, and 2 dc. 8 people, you will not be kicked since there are more than 6 people inside still. *YOU ONLY DC BEFORE OR AFTER BONUS STAGE 95% OF THE TIME*
    - if onyx apples dropped during bonus stage, assuming an average of 1-5 apples will drop. of course people have a choice to give them all to one person or for themselves to sell and make mesos.
    -Guildpq onyx apples would benefit guild boss runs! #makeguildpqgreatagain
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Gang
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    Gang Timer

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    Had to think about this for a bit, but I'm happy they are finally being removed from the vote 2 win marriage system, especially with the apple price rising currently.

    Looking at the options you presented I'm going to go for putting them in GPQ. This really reflects on how they were available in the original, and gives people a really fun option to gain mesos besides farming. Also anything to make GPQ alive again is a good thing.

    My opinion on the other options:

    - Completely remove Apples, or at least until APQ comes out. They are too strong anyway.

    Apples are certainly very powerful, and removing them sounds like a decent option. I guess it would be pretty unfair for the future boss runs to not have access to apples so I'll probably side with keeping them in the game. There is an argument currently that HT is too easy with apples, but I think the recent 'nerfs' to HT (yes, the changes made HT actually easier in my opinion) need to be looked at instead if that's the issue.

    - Have a NPC that sells them at a set (but high) price. Availability could be a problem.

    This would certainly be a decent meso sink which I really support usually, but I just don't think apples are the right thing for a sink. I guess I would take this as my second option still tho. This option is decent... but it just feels very weird to me.

    - Make them drop from Gachapon in tiny stacks.

    Please don't lock even more items in Gachapon, thanks.

    - Have them available for some sort of exchange (Such as Pieces of Time?) or something that would require effort/farming

    At first I thought this would be a good option, but do we really want people to start farming PoT for apples? The latest ToT buffs have already made the exp gain in ToT very high, however I think this change would force many people to go there because it would be the most efficient area in the game.
    I do think PoT should trade for something though. However it shouldn't be very efficient, just something to reward people with high amounts of PoT. I don't think it's the right place for apples.



     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Zebezian
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    Zebezian Master Chronos Retired Staff

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    Not to be mean, but did you read Piety's post at all? Let me break it down into a couple digestible chunks for you. Maybe there's something I'm missing here, but the basic reasoning that you're looking for seems pretty evident.

    ---

    ---
    Hope this helps.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  19. Heartiess
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    Heartiess Guest

    6:27 AM
    What is the reason in prioritizing coding and releasing new areas from non-gms over apq?
     
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  20. Nrii
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    Nrii Brown Teddy

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    Seems like they don't like the gameplay loop of vote > marry > sell apples+get meso because it's gimicky/ buggy/ vote2win/ whatever, so they're looking into viable ways of removing it from the game that don't affect the economy or current status quo too badly.

    The problem is that apples are a core item, and almost a currency in and of themselves.
    Any solution that changes the way people get apples need to be done well, lest the new solution be even more gimicky or market ruining.
     
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