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The Grand Gachapon thread

Discussion in 'Accepted' started by Kimmy, Dec 8, 2015.

Gachapon changes: READ TOPIC

Poll closed Dec 15, 2015.
  1. A2

    44.3%
  2. A3

    15.8%
  3. A3B

    6.6%
  4. A4

    6.0%
  5. B (please post in topic, read B description)

    16.4%
  6. C

    4.9%
  7. Other (please post in topic, read Other description)

    6.0%
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Tarte
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    Tarte Chronos

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    8:44 PM
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    Legends definitely needs to keep Gachapon. It's great because everyone, regardless of level or class, has the same chance to get good items.

    However, I also like the idea of adding some unique drops to PQs and Farming. I wouldn't make the exact same things available in Gach & PQ/Farm though. There should be some items that are only obtainable through their respective methods, but I think this would make PQs a little more attractive, and it wouldn't be so hard to find people to PQ with...maybe :p

    It's impossible to make everyone happy, but I think offering both ways will make more people happier :)
     
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  2. Languages
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    Languages Horny Mushroom

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    Personally I think that the economy is too interconnected to simply talk about gachapon in isolation. The mix between drops, gacha, quests, pq's and bosses is what makes the economy run, and to create a fix that is satisfying requires us to discuss them all together. I'm gunna just write some ideas down as I think of them, its late and I apologize for any disjointed thoughts

    • Scrolls are extremely expensive. I remember in GMS scrolling my lvl 40 zard as a fighter to get the most dps I could. This doesn't happen here because how quickly we level, 'gimmicky' builds (lukless/dexless/strless) and how expensive some scrolls are. I don't think this can really be fixed, but it should be noted.
    • Gachapon doesn't give equal opportunity to everyone. I see this posted everywhere in this thread but it simply isn't true. If your hp washing you use NX for that. If you're a new player you will use nx on clothes and pets and a store. Even when low players get good drops from gach they don't have the same avenues to sell them (friends, guilds) and in many cases the knowledge of the server's prices to make the most of their RNG. Established players benefit most from gach as it is.
    • The distribution of awarded scrolls does not match the demand for scrolls. Has been discussed elsewhere in depth, but it should be noted that some scrolls (int) are actually even more desired than would be expected if demand was purely on class lines. This needs to be taken into account when balancing drop rates.
    • Any discussion about mob drops leads to a never ending discussion about farm efficiency (mages ults). Short of buffing other classes farming abilities (which I all for) or nurfing easy to use one button spam farming tools (also for this) its going to be impossible to do anything about this imbalance. Its inherent in how the classes were designed and needs to be designed around. Yes, mages will farm more mobs/min than any other class but they lack many of the tools required to boss effectively. An example of a balance fix would be making boss monsters exclusively drop 4th job books, mages would be buying them from dps classes, while dps classes buy scrolls/items from them. Obviously this is a little extreme, but the concept holds.
    • Many scrolls are only awarded by lottery, some scrolls are awarded at common training places and some scrolls require players to farm unlikely places or have the expectation that others will. Even if every scroll dropped somewhere, the scrolls that drop at the best exp/min will be attained much faster than anywhere else. Thanks to the lack of low levels compared to GMS, private servers are largely a race to level to become relevant. Just because blue mushrooms drop gloves matk 30% doesn't mean a new player is likely to change his training pattern to match the possible windfall.
    • The player base skews towards a much higher level than GMS did due to a highly skilled, lower population and higher rates. We as players have had a decade with this game to theory craft the best builds, optimal items and most lucrative grinding spots. Its impossible to defend this being a carbon copy of GMS at v62 for this reason, things like hp washing were hugely expensive, the game was anything but transparent and player sourced information was highly volatile (go look at HS's gach list, or any rare item listing on mapletip.)
    • The rewards from lower level content versus high level farming is huge. The ideal would be that an hour of playtime for any reasonable level character would yield about the same amount of marketable material. The advantage you get with levels would allow you to broaden the potential avenues for income, allowing higher levels to obtain items that low levels couldn't, but the value should be approximately the same.
    • Dark scrolls (30/70) are extremely widely available compared to their normal counterparts (10/60) leading to an increased use of scrolls, but far fewer completed items making it to market. This forces players to scroll more, continuing the cycle.
    • Gachapon is much more necessary for some classes than others. A spearman relies on gachapon for its end game weapon, ski's. I would personally argue that this was never intended by Neckson, and is simply an oversight with regards to the attack speed of the ski family of weapons (as with fishing pole being a viable end game weapon) but it also applies to mages and elemental weapons. On the other end of the spectrum is thiefs/bowmen/pirates who's end game weapons are part of the 'normal' progression of items. I think that these 'specialty' items should remain solely in the gach (ski, wands, kabob, etc) and we should add more of these 'flavour' items. While it will have its critics for not being 'nostalgic' per se, it would be balanced, and that's what the discussion is about. Examples of this for other classes could include lower req stat items, slower/higher dmg items, items with unique bonuses, etc. They don't have to be strictly better, but by adding then in would increase diversity of drops, while also allowing some of the theory crafting that made progression in GMS interesting.
    • Group content is complete shit compared to farming or grinding. I'm not saying that kpq/lpq/lmpq/ppq/opq should be splitting out massive amounts of good stuff, but the rate should definitely improve. It should be a mix of rewards relevent to the player (at level equips, scrolls) and a small opportunity at exclusive big ticket items (chaos scrolls, rare items for example) to entice older players to participate in low level content.
    • Content geared towards allowing low level players an opportunity is abusable by anyone. Mano, stumpy, dyle, etc should be put on separate maps with level restrictions. One of the ways I made myself enough money to afford some decent stuff was by camping these and tracking spawns. One of the most disheartening things is another player coming in, fully nx'ed up, one everything in sight and going to farm the other vic bosses.
    • Quests need real rewards. IMHO quests are a godsend for balance discussion, they are level gated and can only be completed once per character. The problem is some of the rewards don't seem to depend at all on the time investment. This is a holdover from GMS, where questing was an afterthought. Many quests can have scrolls/items/gacha tickets/whatever added as rewards and have a much more balanced distribution among the players than tweeking drop rates could.
    • Gachapon diversity hinders scroll diversity. We all have asked or been asked what the most profitable gach is. For many players this is the entire driving factor of gach and the actual items received don't matter, only their price tags. In a large server with an active economy this doesn't matter nearly as much. Say shrine is considered the best gach, everyone gachs there and devalues the price of those scrolls to a point where its no longer the most profitable; because of the increase in scrolls and the stable demand, the market will begin to undersell each other, and prices will drop. The problem is we have a small economy of uninformed merchants, the economy simply isn't competitive enough to self regulate and we don't have enough players who test alternate gachs to know each gachs ticket/meso ratio. Showa tickets at this point may be 200-300% more profitable than kerning/shrine, but we will never know until we have offloaded hundreds of tickets and shared, collected and analysed the results. To counter this we should limit ourselves to 3-5 gachs, equally available (stick em all in fm for all I care) with some unique items in each but some basic guidelines. Say each gach had a ratio of 1% ultra rare (chaos/white/pac/etc), 29% equips, 50% scrolls and 20% misc (stims/apple/itcg) and the only variance was in the equips, rare items and perhaps the weighting of scrolls (I would say all gach should give all scrolls, with maybe minor difference between them).
    • Gachapon prints money by giving items and whatnot for free. Once mobs drop all items gachapon should be regulated to being for 'exclusive' items and actually be considered gambling. If we make it so there is no 'trash' in gach we can charge meso instead of nx for tickets. This is important because it becomes a meso sink, and transforms gach into a plaything for wealthier players to get the chance at unique items at a loss (in mesos in the economy, not the value of the items). Tickets can also come from quests, pq, boss, allowing other players a taste of what gach can offer on the server while not being one of their primary methods of funding. Gach should be priced to be a significant investment, and its viability should be dictated by the economy; once you pin a gach ticket to a meso value it becomes instantly comparable to its reward. This allows gach to act as a permanent part of the economic cycle.
    • Mob scroll drops should be determined by global weights and not individual mob drop tables. This idea is gunna seem nuts but I think is the most fair. We say that each mob has a, for example, 0.02% chance to drop a scroll. Every mob has the same chance, and every mob has the same list of scrolls it can drop. This makes it very easy to balance scroll availability in the future and means that we can't pick and chose what to farm. Since everyone is getting random scrolls it also promotes people participating in the market, since they will be unable to specifically get the scrolls they need.
    • Some form of 'currency' or 'exchange' is set up to choose scrolls. The idea here is that boss/pq/gacha can give you this 'currency' which can then be exchanged for any 10/60/100% scroll for one price and 30/70% for another. This fills the gap created by the above proposal where the tweaking of the drop rate may not catch up to demand in time and this currency can be used to obtain particularly valuable scrolls. These should be in the form of some marketable item.
    • Equips should be the limiting factor, not scrolls. This is a problem that crops up a lot in private servers. Since players have exponentially more time to farm in game than the nx they recieve purely from voting, we end up with many more items than we have scrolls to use on them. By making scrolls more available and equips the limiting factor we can see more creative use of the scrolls.
    • Chaos scrolls aren't evil. Compared to 30/70%'s which can remove an item from the market completely (why we see so few scrolled items in market compared to the scrolls we sell) chaos scrolls are extremely healthy. Chaos scrolls not only don't destroy items, but draw higher level players away from other scrolls and are neutral. Chaos scrolls have a much higher chance of doing nothing or making an item worse than they do for improving an item. Even when they do improve an item the slot space could very well be better used with a normal scroll. While I don't advocate for them being common, they are a lot better than dark scrolls and white scrolls and shouldn't really be clumped together with either when discussing scroll balance.
    zzzz-That's all I can be bothered to write right now but it should be known I don't propose all of these be implemented at once, or even ever as many concept cover the same issues. I've had a long day and I don't have the willpower to reread this and fix it up too much, but I think its fairly well written.

    I love to reply to people, but please quote only the relevant part when you reply to me so I know the context. Select the text you want to quote and a popup will come up.

    Anyway, thanks Kim for this~
     
    • Like Like x 6
  3. Gang
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    Gang Timer

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    I'd say remove gachapon tickets from the Cash shop, and get them in the game dropping at a very very low rate from regular monsters (or don't let regular monsters drop them at all), and at a decent rate from Area bosses. Regular bosses can drop them at a higher rate. Maybe even put them in OPQ as a reward to encourage people doing OPQ. Or any PQ that is never used.

    Hell, maybe even go crazy and put some decent rewards in quests that are useless, which in turn makes questing a cool option aswell.

    Adjust the boss timers and make them spawn faster, but make sure to keep the randomizer in there (So for example, between 1 hour and 1 1/2 hour) to prevent people from owning boss maps.

    Then revamp the gachapon system again. Remove most of the shit drops and put in higher rates for good items. Now the server will keep the exciting moments for gachapon, what will you get this time? It would improve gameplay, and people would be able to hunt for some gach tickets.

    Next step is to put all the 30% scrolls in game somewhere. Put them in certain PQ's, let high level monsters drop them, let bosses drop them. Putting certain scrolls in certain monsters is key to get people to hunt at different places and make the world bigger then Leafre: The dragon nest left behind.

    Of course, the drop rate and gachapon rate will have to be tweaking carefully, and has to be at a perfect balance rate. Which will not be the easiest task I can assume.

    (For example, if you make gachapon's only drop really good stuff the tickets will have to be very rare. This will make for more exciting moments while getting the ticket, instead of only having exciting moments 1/15 times and alot of sad moments when getting 10 elixers in a row)

    Just a random idea
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
  4. Gi
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    Gi Windraider

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    A3,

    along with removing everything else that has more than cosmetic value from the cash shop by making it available through actual game-play. Currently how donor points can be used in cash shop disgusts me.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Jas
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    Jas Horny Mushroom

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    For those who know me I'm by far the poorest Bishop in game.(currently sitting at 3.5m aayyyeee)

    Doesn't matter that I have gene and basically live at skele I'm broke. This is because I'm trying to fund a bucc and scrolls are scarce and apparently my luck sucks.

    While I try to balance my nx between, looking adorable af, washing, and gach(because poor.) I find it extremely hard to do so. I spend one week of voting on gach and one on washing repeat then my nx expires(like it did today.) So there goes all my nx!

    Personally I like gach because it's fun and it's a way to gamble that saves me irl money ;). But I also don't think it's currently balanced. People will mostly gach for the expensive items. So there will always be people gaching at kerning/perion because of PACs and other high priced and high valued items because of the class availability.

    Far as I know the amount of people gaching at Hene and Naut is very very few. There was even a post early that completely forgot about a starting town(cba to go back and see which one) which just illustrates where the importance lies for those who are looking to gach for money.

    I'm personally trying to do both, gach for money and gach for pirate items. It currently stands that it's easier and more efficient for me to not gach for pirate items at all and try and make money first which just sends me right back to Kerning making the rate of thief scrolls and items more available in server while pirate things go down.

    It's just an example and really doesn't make much point since I voted for A2. If I can farm it, I will farm until my fingers fall off because I'd rather spend time in game working towards my goal rather than waiting for my next chance to vote.

    (This is also why I never post here, did any of that even make sense :T)
     
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  6. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    Why? It's only cosmetics.
     
  7. Sucre
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    Sucre Zakum

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    You can use donor points in the donor cash shop and the regular cash shop. Yes, that includes ap resets, vip rocks, gach, etc..
    Even if it only would be able to buy the cosmetics from cash shop, it would still be unfair (for people who care about cosmetics, but don't donate) because donators could use money to get a look, and spend all their vote nx on gach/ap resets/vip rocks...
    Completely off-topic, but I guess I was explaining Gi's opinion.
     
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  8. Dyna
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    Dyna Horny Mushroom

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    B ~ I like the system the way it is its just not balanced enough atm.
    Some scrolls/items are way too rare.
     
  9. Dulce
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    Dulce Brown Teddy

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    I vote for B,

    This doesn't mean that i am not willing to have scrolls like gun 30%, 1h sword 30% available from farming mobs. No not at all, these scrolls needs to be farmable too, but for me the gachapon change would be priority #1, so i vote B.
    Let me explain why:

    I think that not everyone got time to hunt the items they want, so they need supply on the market to buy it. Farming unique items will be a good way to make mesos ,if you hunt for unique items like chaos scrolls / white scrolls.
    For example i hunted a flamekeeper cordon glove for over 20 hours and got none (<-- not complaining the rates should be low like this for a unique item), so i was lucky someone was selling in FM for 130m and bought that one.
    This idea could apply on farming chaos / ws scrolls.

    The problem is that i don't see people farming scrolls (like shield matk / watk, earring int, bot dex, top str, gun atk, 1h sword atk etc.) to sell on the market, UNLESS those scrolls will drop from the mobs on the 'hotspots' (like ghostship, himes, skeles).
    But i am not sure if that's the #1 solution, this might even cause more problems like overcrowding those maps, while other trainingspots will be empty.
    But if you put the scrolls on a 'low profile spot', like gryphon (flying monster in NLC), you will get the low supply problem (people will only farm for own use maybe).

    If you think: ''Mister Dulce, don't be lazy go farm the things you need ''.

    Well i could go farm the things i need, but i don't think all the players got the time to farm the scrolls they need, they need a market with a decent supply.
    The supply of the farmable items in the last months have been terrible;
    Example 1: you could farm the cordon glove, but for the last 2 months no one had any on the market if i am right.
    Example 2: people farmed BWG's in the summer, but the last 2 BWG's in FM were from gachapon (many weeks no BWG in FM). Not saying that no one is trying to farm, i just think that the total hour of BWG farm is way lower than it used to be.
    Example 3: Bottom dex 60% is farmable, but did anyone saw those on FM?
    etc.

    So there are changes needed in gachapon. The last gachapon revamp was to make people use other gachapon than Shrine. Well it kinda worked, only i think people seem to found a new favourite (kerning). i'm not sure how the changes on unique items are compared to other city's, but i see that the most Pink gaia capes / Pink adventure capes are pulled @ kerning. This is probably caused by the reasons the most people use kerning city. But i saw those capes too in henesys,perion,elenia (and nautulus?). I agree with LionheartLionheart on this point. Why should elinia have a Pink adventure cape (i am sure i saw someone pulling this) and not purple gaia cape, shield matk, earring int? Remove the PAC from elinia and put those items there would be my suggestion.
    I am not aware of the whole gacha list, but i think there is enough potential to balance the city's + making a good supply on the market.

    Also i remember in the old days on EMS that chaos scrolls were ALWAYS cheaper than PAC. On this server i saw a normal PAC sold for 80m and a chaos scroll sold for 260m, but that's one of the reasons why this poll is started i guess :p

    My last point is about Temple Of Time:

    This 'new' feature in MapleLegends seemed to be so promising, but the truth (<-- atleast the way i see it) is that people only complete those quests and go back to the skele grind. I mean it's nowskele grind from lvl 108-200 with bosses and ToT quest atm.

    I think it would be nice to make other places more attractive to high level than the skele grind. So i think it would be nice to add chaos scroll / white scroll drop from ToT monsters, so some higher levels decide to train there for exp + low change on rare drop, instead of best exp (skele).

    FYI: i never used a gachapon, so if you think now people will only use the Neckson for gachapon. Well it's your choice what you do with your Neckson, i picked clothes + hp wash over pet and gachapon.

    In conclusion:

    - The gachapon needs to be changed so people with less time to play MapleLegends got a way to make mesos
    & having a good supply on scrolls.

    - Adding a really low change of a unique item on PQ (like KPQ,LPQ) would make those PQ's more attractive
    and this is needed, because it is hard to find even 1 party now.

    - the previous 2 changes are for the low level people, so i agree with LosjLosj by adding a really low change on a unique item (white scroll / chaos scroll) as a drop from monsters in ToT. This would make ToT more attractive, (seems empty at the moment)


    - Making all weapon / magic attack 30% scrolls available through farming different monsters.

    peace :)
     
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  10. Freddychanyo
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    Freddychanyo Slimy

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    Finally someone who agrees <3
     
  11. Richard
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    Richard Pink Teddy

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    A & B. It would be nice to have unique items/scrolls dropped by mobs, bosses and rewarded from pqs at a very very low rate. Then keep the gach system the same. This would seem fair, so everyone have equal opportunities for every gach items they need whether your a hard core farmer or just a casual voter.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
  12. Shaved
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    Shaved Mixed Golem

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    best idea ever Honor the legend dk LosjLosj <3
    A2 leading rip for the A3 ppl reeeeeekt xD
     
  13. nicholas123
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    nicholas123 Red Snail

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    Definitely B. I personally feel that eventually, if unique items can be obtained by means of PQ/Farming, it would become so common that that the item will lose it's status as unique. For example, the Dragon Khanjar item, I heard is very rare (not sure if it still is), is worth 20m and in this version, 20m is a fortune. By default, whoever owns Khanjar would make themselves feel very special and keep on wanting to play more. What I would suggest to improve the Gachapon system is to tweak the chances, add more items in various towns [e.g. Henesys - Bowman (add more unique bowman items into Henesys Gachapon)],balance the item distribution and sort out the Gachapon items in an orderly manner. To add on,I completely disagree with the option of making Gachapon tickets obtainable by mobs. This won't define Gachapon like what it is right now at it's current state.
     
  14. nanop33
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    nanop33 Capt. Latanica

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    While I think A2 is the healthiest option, A3 could work if implemented in a certain way. Anything that pumps more scrolls into the system is a move forward. Tick drops would have to be higher than the obtainable rate right now (5 per day or 35 in 6 days). One way to deal with RNG is to simply overwhelm with volume.

    Of course this would have its own downsides, notably the extreme devaluation of the more common scrolls obtained from each Gach so rates would have to be tweaked again.
     
  15. Rod
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    Rod Selkie Jr.

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    No, are you gonna deny people don't do that when they have 2 or 3 characters? I'm not saying everyone does it, but there's a couple (to be more specific some of the dupers did vote abuse themselves and never got caught, I talked with them after before you ask me how do I know that). lol
    Either way, I may have exaggerated with that comment, although in my eyes it doesn't make any sense to remove tickets from cash shop, what will newcomers use their NX at? AP Resets? What if they wanna play a mage? What if they don't wanna HP wash like everyone else, I don't remember HP washing when I was a noob at v.62, literally didn't even know how to do KPQ.

    Also this:
     
  16. Languages
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    Languages Horny Mushroom

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    Just because you didn't know something or don't want to do something doesn't mean others feel the same way. As for NX, I honestly don't even know if you're thinking very hard about this, what would newcomers use their NX on you ask? Clothes, Resets, Pets, Item slots, FM Store, Hair/Face/Skin tickets; There are FAR more constraints on a new players NX than an older one, so arguing that new players lose out the most from making NX is insane. If the drop rates/quest rewards/pq rewards were better balanced with gacha, THAT would help new players since its actual low level content.
     
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  17. Rod
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    Rod Selkie Jr.

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    But didn't you get funded with scrolls after using gachapon for the months you've been playing this game? What about if someone joins the server today and wants to use his whole NX on gachapon to get mesos. Rofl, you're telling every player is equal on what they purchase at cash shop? Clothes, Resets, Pets, Item slots? Nah, some people only waste their NX on that when they have enough mesos to live with, people such as myself.
     
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  18. Languages
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    Languages Horny Mushroom

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    100% conjecture. You can see from my profile I've only played for a little over 2 weeks now. While I appreciate all opinions being discussed here, I'm sure it would benefit the dev's a lot more if you explained the reasoning behind your argument more.
     
  19. Rod
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    Rod Selkie Jr.

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    Your profile pic tells me that you made a forum account 2 weeks ago, doesn't tell me you started playing 2 weeks ago too. As I said, you may have not read my post with your fully attention.
    The only reason to vote right now for a few players is to farm gacha tickets to use them some day and make some good mesos, people who quit and wanna come back will keep voting to have that advantage as well, so when they come back they come back stronger than ever. People who just started playing do not have the enough mesos or items to just farm mesos off PQs, monsters or bosses. And gachapon has always been there so why even remove it? thought it was GMS-like

    disadvantage of removing gachapon tickets from cash shop: Lots of players will quit whenever they start playing and realise that and a few will stop voting.

    My opinion, don't take it personal and respect it. Thanks
     
  20. Andyman99999
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    Andyman99999 Pac Pinky

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    Misfits
    Even farming is all luck and RNG. The problem with farming is, it usually takes longer (for me) and is a time waster. I mean, farming, you can get what you want, but it still takes a considerable amount of time for certain classes at certain levels. Since I won't be able to actual utilize my attacking skills until 120 with (rush and brandish), I'll be wasting time trying to farm with slash blast and power strike... Movement for warriors is terrible unless you can get things to add speed/jump and then you still run into the fact you have to agro all of the enemies, or use slash blast one 2-3 enemies at a time (to it's not full potential), even though you can hit more.
     
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