The reason why our ToS needs to change

Pelinsu · Jul 7, 2023

At this point I honestly think some posts try to derail the conversation into a some action they don't like and try to bash GMs about it, and it doesn't provide any constructive value to the conversation at all.

Stop thinking your personal opinions as facts and maybe we can get to agree on a mutual point.

TORONTOTOKYO · Jul 7, 2023

Pelinsu said: ↑

At this point I honestly think some posts try to derail the conversation into a some action they don't like and try to bash GMs about it, and it doesn't provide any constructive value to the conversation at all.

Stop thinking your personal opinions as facts and maybe we can get to agree on a mutual point.
Click to expand...

not sure if u have reached end game. but theres more shit and potholes that can get u banned when u reach that level.

Nise · Jul 7, 2023

philip said: ↑

To give a quick example of vagueness or discretion. before stalking was actually added to the official ToS the question was what is ToS now I feel like the question is when are you exactly following a person and when are you uncomfortable and what makes sense?
View attachment 51198
if I feel uncomfortable with GM's being invisible in my 5-6F map and I get footage or proof they are in it can they be reported or banned if told to cc.

If you channel-surf maps and do nothing and say nothing and you pass by the same player is that following? And if so is it illegal (stalking) or are you legally watching (investigating)

- With how this rule is worded I can see certain GM's ban players more roughly than others its just super subjective and should be worded more clearly though I can see its nice to make traps like this so you as gm's can ban players you do not like

- and saying you are human and everybody makes mistakes over and over again from gm to gm is honestly starting to sound very cliche or like you are making excuses for making bad bans and justifying them. I think you moderators should be better at clarifying the people that you falsely banned instead of saying completely nothing to save embarrassment from the public the damage you do by falsely banning people is irreversible and could have been prevented if moderators were better at acknowledging they fucked up.

-Arrgh Nise, you cannot be serious here I hard disagree, GM's should just provide evidence. GM's are too vague, cannot be trusted and too passive. Our Maplelegend moderators does not deserve the right to alter evidence so they start banning for more things than what is presented
Click to expand...

Really not sure about this “GMS HAVE A TRAP SET OUT FOR US IN TOS” argument. If you read the ToS, we’ve explicitly clarified what would result in a ban from our side:

There needs to be an offended party

Meaning, a GM cant just go around banning people they want arbitrarily, we operate based on reports

We thought that was obvious, but apparently not, so we made it clearer

An attempt to de escalate

This means you cant just be reported for doing something, we’re asking you to have a conversation. Hopefully the reporter will explain why they feel uncomfortable with being “stalked”. After which if the “stalker” explains what they’re doing and that its a misunderstanding, we hope that as mature adults people can realize whats going wrong.

If you feel like you’re being stalked, talk to them, explain why you feel uncomfortable.

If someone thinks you’re stalking them, talk to them, explain it clearly. If you refuse to do the bare minimum of having a conversation, or listen to their requests, thats on you.

If we have wrongly banned, we will own up to it. Also a lot of these incidents under Section 3 are not announced to the public. So unless youre actively going around spreading you got banned, it shouldn’t affect public perception of you because there was no blue text. Harassment bans are silent. I think you might be mistaking “staff fucked up” with “staff didnt decide the way I wanted to”.

And I can cite every ban appeal I’ve dealt with and tell you that we give precise details of what they were banned for. I also run through which specific section of the ToS applies. So much so to the point people are mad that I went to so much detail (literally been cursed out on a few appeals cus of it). Is our standard across the board to this extreme? No, but it is of a level where people are given evidence. Or enough information about the evidence. If you believe your ban appeal was not handled to a standard you were happy with, please feel free to ask for another moderator or a supervisor to respond to your appeal.

Hiyo · Jul 7, 2023

TORONTOTOKYO said: ↑

not sure if u have reached end game. but theres more shit and potholes that can get u banned when u reach that level.
Click to expand...

I have and I have yet to be banned and I’ve been around for a long time, it’s not hard to be a decent human and be in the endgame too. Plenty of others I know are in similar shoes as I am. Not everyone in this game is out to get you (generally speaking not specifically directed towards you).

Pelinsu · Jul 7, 2023

TORONTOTOKYO said: ↑

not sure if u have reached end game. but theres more shit and potholes that can get u banned when u reach that level.
Click to expand...

Pelinsu said: ↑

Stop thinking your personal opinions as facts and maybe we can get to agree on a mutual point.
Click to expand...

The statement stands for itself.

Pasta · Jul 7, 2023

Moderator Post

Dimez said: ↑

I’m gonna try and answer this in a way that actually comes from the top of my head rather than trying to be as formal as possible. The biggest issue with 3.3.3 is that it feels like the maplelegends staff are trying to play god. Trying to control how people feel and control the social climate through the rules. Maplelegends is a social game and just like real life there are consequences of being able to socialize, express and feel. The social penalty for being able to do that is that people will either like you, not like, or will think you are meaningless to them. The REAL underlying problem with 3.3.3 is that it was implemented almost 7 years after the server has been launched. The reason why this is a problem is because players' reputation has already been established. So implementing this rule is pretty much asking players to drop and stomach all issues, problems or feelings towards other players they might have had in the past.. This is more on the “unwelcoming” part of the 3.3.3.. Because if people are being forced to be welcoming to people they are not fond of or have not been fond of for years then that's playing god through the rules and forcing people to either be on good terms or stomach how they feel about one another for the sake of maplelegends. That's just maplelegends, the more catastrophic part of this is that you can get banned for expressing how you feel about others outside of maplelegends platforms. I'm not sure if this is new to anyone reading this, but for some people maplelegends is an extension of their personal life, they make personal friends here, they find relationships here, and they do large meetups. Because of this, people find themselves submerged in this social community deeper than others. Expecting those people to NEVER talk badly or express really bad thoughts on some people in off platform discords is quite literally impossible… unless you implement a rule like 3.3.3 where then the staff have the ability to play god and attempt to control a social setting. These are my thoughts and I'm going into this with an open mind, it's possible I'm wrong.
Click to expand...

The idea behind 3.3.3 was to have a way to handle harassment/bullying so extreme that it would force an unfair negative image on a player, to the point where they no longer feel safe in the community.
A heated discussion between players in a guild discord won't trigger it, a negative comment about another player won't trigger it either. Repeated mockery, or constantly calling someone a cheater to the point where it becomes a public "habit" in-game or in official discord as well, would trigger it.

Personally, I don't agree with it being too invasive of a rule. Its goal is to prevent those extreme cases regardless of where they originated. This is just my view on it though, and as Nise said, we are open to alter it based on feedback.

jasonyuns said: ↑

"However, if you were to be punished for, say, a roll scam, a general harassment case, a racial discrimination case, and a community harassment case, you would be back in slightly more than a month"
so youd rather have a thief, and a racist come back earlier than a person whose had an argument and is frustrated in the moment? idk id rather have those people not in the community than people whose upset with 1 person. And lets not pretend some players are closer with GMs and Staffs and they may view said case in a bias.
Click to expand...

Please re-read the post you quoted. I'm arguing the exact thing you said.

Pasta said: ↑

Accumulating three strikes on each of those offenses will already land you at least an account ban. This means that, for example, three harassment offenses, would lead to an account ban.
However, if you were to be punished for, say, a roll scam, a general harassment case, a racial discrimination case, and a community harassment case, you would be back in slightly more than a month.

If a player manages to accumulate so many offenses, I find it hard to still want them around the community, regardless of how liked they were. It makes no sense to be able to get away with a collection of first punishments.
Click to expand...

philip · Jul 7, 2023

Nise said: ↑

Really not sure about this “GMS HAVE A TRAP SET OUT FOR US IN TOS” argument. If you read the ToS, we’ve explicitly clarified what would result in a ban from our side:
Click to expand...

Okay, if this is the case why did you have to change this rule in ToS in the first place. Is it really not a trap to ban people for something that is not even written in the official ToS until legit yesterday? However Kimmy had posted details in a diffrent post (that is not in the official TOS) about it 5-6 years ago to the ToS that I believe most players did not even know about trying to clarify what Harrashment.

I know for a fact Game Moderaters think the rules for stalking is written stupidly. I also like how you very elegantly completely avoided answering what "Following" and "uncomfortable" exactly mean and when you are doing it and its these things that become quite tiring because you just have to stand there and state things in the most politically correct way. Can I not just have a clear answer or is this honestly only up to the Moederators to decide when following is "legally watching" and when its "stalking" and when you are "uncomfortable" and when its unreasonable to be "uncomfortable". example being the possibillity of having invisible moderators in your map stalking you or I mean moderators make the rules so they "legally watch you" or gm's tracking all the logs in the game.

Nise said: ↑

If we have wrongly banned, we will own up to it.
Click to expand...

How do you Moderators exactly clear people's names after falsely being accused? - Do you just say sorry here is 5.000 donor points?

Nise: "If you believe your ban appeal was not handled to a standard you were happy with, please feel free to ask for another moderator or a supervisor to respond to your appeal."
- I don't believe that the moderators would ever admit that it is weird on the forums, but only in dm's that you can get banned for something that is not even written in the rule book, besides two of the gm's that dealed with it stepped down or got audited. My point is traps like this exist and you saying its not a trap is a complete lie and I think you also know that.

Dimez · Jul 7, 2023

Pasta said: ↑

The idea behind 3.3.3 was to have a way to handle harassment/bullying so extreme that it would force an unfair negative image on a player, to the point where they no longer feel safe in the community.
A heated discussion between players in a guild discord won't trigger it, a negative comment about another player won't trigger it either. Repeated mockery, or constantly calling someone a cheater to the point where it becomes a public "habit" in-game or in official discord as well, would trigger it.
.
Click to expand...

The goal of 3.3.3 sounds good in nature.. no disagreements here. But allow me to use your own analogy with a spin. Can 30 people in a private non maple-legends official discord call someone a cheater repeatedly ? How about 30 people in a snapchat group chat, or an Instagram group chat, or twitter.. ..Would this fall under the lines of 3.3.3 .. If the answer is yes, what is the difference between this and going to a coffee shop with my guildies to talk horrible about Edann and how hes been cheating at playing maple-legends for years. (ILY Edann just using you as an example)

The issue here is that I've thrown this same question at different staff members and they give completely different answers.. some will say it's okay, and some will say it's completely against the TOS.(Bit of an anecdote but I am sure its not that hard to believe) There is no concrete answer or even consistency (and yes obviously its a case by case) but that's not the point I am trying to make by posing the question above.

Again I will say, I'm coming to this with an open mind, it's very possible I'm not actually seeing the underlying reasons behind 3.3.3 and I might need to be nudged there.

Signature · Jul 7, 2023

To me the main problem stems from a black and white ToS where each decision stems from a case by case decision from one or many moderator with no transparency.

The ruling and enforcing of the ToS hasn't changed since I started playing and like it or not we re reaching a similar point of community divide from 2016 all over again.
#dontbringyourintgeartoschooltomorrow

Lynx · Jul 7, 2023

soulreload said: ↑

The thing is, you wont have room to learn from it since you were banned from the server, you are dead, the server maybe lost an active player that was good for most of the community and even recruited people to the server. Its reasonable to have a 3 month ban before that! A few days is not enough to get an account immediatly banned after that.
Click to expand...

More than enough "room to learn" from your first 3 strikes and their consequences

Nightz · Jul 7, 2023

Moderator Post

Signature said: ↑

Couple that with a incentive to report to possibly get a reward, it doesn't promote talking it out ingame when the reporter gets a win win scenario.
Click to expand...

Just to clarify, NX rewards are only given with reports that lead to bans related to RWT, Botting, hacking and possibly when game breaking bug is discovered and reported. There will never be any NX reward for successfully reporting someone for harassment. If this wasn't what you meant then disregard my message

Signature · Jul 7, 2023

Nightz said: ↑

Just to clarify, NX rewards are only given with reports that lead to bans related to RWT, Botting, hacking and possibly when game breaking bug is discovered and reported. There will never be any NX reward for successfully reporting someone for harassment. If this wasn't what you meant then disregard my message
Click to expand...

Thanks for clarification! I'll remove that part

fael · Jul 7, 2023

TORONTOTOKYO said: ↑

not sure if u have reached end game. but theres more shit and potholes that can get u banned when u reach that level.
Click to expand...

I think this is a really important thing we must consider. This may sound elitist but that's not what I mean. It's just because it's impossible to have or even HEAR about any conflict when the Maple Story you play is actually on Maple Island and chat on discord.

Mageor · Jul 7, 2023

fael said: ↑

I think this is a really important thing we must consider. This may sound elitist but that's not what I mean. It's just because it's impossible to have or even HEAR about any conflict when the Maple Story you play is actually on Maple Island and chat on discord.
Click to expand...

May I ask, what conflicts are unavoidable in late game?

fael · Jul 7, 2023

Mageor said: ↑

May I ask, what conflicts are unavoidable in late game?
Click to expand...

I won't say anything in specific because it may be considered public accusation and I'm 1 ban to go. But I can assure you there are a lot of attitudes from people that you wouldn't imagine. This is a 8 years old server, we got a lot of past. People said a lot of shit to the others in Discord before it was considered a bannable offense and other people get involved in conflicts because not everyone can turn a blind eye to lies or injustice. It's normal in the life for you to dislike specific people and publicly talk about it with jokes or insults with your friends c'mon don't tell me you don't do that. I just don't know why the hell there is something called "community harassment" and there are bans for talking on private discord servers. That's why a lot of ppl think that the Staff is trying to play God.

Mageor · Jul 7, 2023

fael said: ↑

I won't say anything in specific because it may be considered public accusation and I'm 1 ban to go. But I can assure you there are a lot of attitudes from people that you wouldn't imagine. This is a 8 years old server, we got a lot of past. People said a lot of shit to the others in Discord before it was considered a bannable offense and other people get involved in conflicts because not everyone can turn a blind eye to lies or injustice. It's normal in the life for you to dislike specific people and publicly talk about it with jokes or insults with your friends c'mon don't tell me you don't do that. I just don't know why the hell there is something called "community harassment" and there are bans for talking on private discord servers. That's why a lot of ppl think that the Staff is trying to play God.
Click to expand...

I dislike people sure, but I won't publicly talk about it and insult them tbh. Most people have not offended me in such a way that garner that attention. However, I could just be an edge case. I do agree that there should be statute of limitations to avoid old history conflict and only narrow down harassment to recent events or start from Aug 2023.

fael · Jul 7, 2023

Mageor said: ↑

I dislike people sure, but I won't publicly talk about it and insult them tbh. Most people have not offended me in such a way that garner that attention. However, I could just be an edge case. I do agree that there should be statute of limitations to avoid old history conflict and only narrow down harassment to recent events or start from Aug 2023.
Click to expand...

Yeah man I don't insult or talk about everyone I dislike aswell. Unless they keep baiting you somehow. But as I said, I can't be more specific. I tried to make a Ban Appeal/Report Abuse and the Staff simply closed it telling me to post only the necessary information about who I was reporting hahahah but like yeah I literally told you all the necessary information but you guys don't wanna know what happened 1 year ago and why people have been baiting like they do.

Oolong · Jul 7, 2023

Mageor said: ↑

I dislike people sure, but I won't publicly talk about it and insult them tbh. Most people have not offended me in such a way that garner that attention. However, I could just be an edge case. I do agree that there should be statute of limitations to avoid old history conflict and only narrow down harassment to recent events or start from Aug 2023.
Click to expand...

Seeing the drama will always be inevitable. However, involving or inserting yourself in the drama to the point where you get the harassment ban is a choice. Like Hiyo said above, a lot of us have been here for 2+ years and haven't been banned. For anything.

fael · Jul 7, 2023

Oolong said: ↑

Seeing the drama will always be inevitable. However, involving or inserting yourself in the drama to the point where you get the harassment ban is a choice. Like Hiyo said above, a lot of us have been here for 2+ years and haven't been banned. For anything.
Click to expand...

Maybe you just had the luck of never facing a real baiter. Plus you both were from Staff. Do you think people treat staff members - even if they're retired - the same as regular players?

Mageor · Jul 7, 2023

fael said: ↑

Yeah man I don't insult or talk about everyone I dislike aswell. Unless they keep baiting you somehow. But as I said, I can't be more specific. I tried to make a Ban Appeal/Report Abuse and the Staff simply closed it telling me to post only the necessary information about who I was reporting hahahah but like yeah I literally told you all the necessary information but you guys don't wanna know what happened 1 year ago and why people have been baiting like they do.
Click to expand...

Maybe a suggestion can be to talk to a GM you trust and discuss the issue you have in hand since you can't disclose it publicly. I do hope you can resolve it.

Log in or Sign up

The reason why our ToS needs to change

Pelinsu Timer

TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

Hiyo Headless Horseman Retired Staff

Pelinsu Timer

Pasta Game Developer Staff Member Game Developer

philip Mixed Golem

Dimez Stone Golem

Signature Stone Golem

Lynx Dark Stone Golem Retired Staff

Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

Signature Stone Golem

fael Nightshadow

Mageor Mr. Anchor

fael Nightshadow

Mageor Mr. Anchor

fael Nightshadow

Oolong Dark Stone Golem Retired Staff

fael Nightshadow

Mageor Mr. Anchor

Share This Page

Log in or Sign up

Useful Searches

The reason why our ToS needs to change

Pelinsu Timer

TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

Hiyo Headless Horseman Retired Staff

Pelinsu Timer

Pasta Game Developer Staff Member Game Developer

philip Mixed Golem

Dimez Stone Golem

Signature Stone Golem

Lynx Dark Stone Golem Retired Staff

Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

Signature Stone Golem

fael Nightshadow

Mageor Mr. Anchor

fael Nightshadow

Mageor Mr. Anchor

fael Nightshadow

Oolong Dark Stone Golem Retired Staff

fael Nightshadow

Mageor Mr. Anchor

Share This Page