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Auf Haven suggestions from a frequent runner

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Lin, Apr 24, 2023.

  1. Lin
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    Lin Headless Horseman

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    Greetings Travellers, Linny here.

    Auf Haven/Aufheben is one of the endgame bosses i have been running fairly frequently since its release on August 2022, and after many runs i figured its time to share what i have learnt and noticed in the runs i have been in. This may be a jumbled mess because i'm not a pro forum writer but i will try my best, without further ado, let's address some stuff!

    Classes and it's viability

    For Auf, its mainly a 'melee biased' boss for the most part, because the three clone phases, involves taking down a total of 7 clones in a run as fast as possible. If unable to do so, the clones will end up healing themselves as well as the Main Auf Haven by a good chunk. Hence melee classes like Warriors, Shadowers, Buccaneers, and sometimes Marksman are good for this boss.

    For Mages, it might be one of the most excruciatingly painful bosses one would ever have to fight, with all those dispels. There is also a skill that has killed many of my lower HP Shadower and Mages, which is this skill. It looks like she's going to do a Dispel Orb, but it doesn't come out. It's a fake, it's actually a close ranged stun attack. Warriors, Shadowers, Buccs, and Mages will get hit by it, and if she cast's a Global dispel, plop there goes my Mage friends.
    Please refer to this gif below for the 'Fake orb stun skill'


    One unfortunate dilemma for me as a host right now is that some classes, do end up being in the lurch, i don't have much of a suggestion for classes, but perhaps with the flying ability enabled in the future, it might be a better QOL as right now, the range players will have to jump and shoot like so.
    sadasd.png

    Have you guys seen this item before? auf wing.png
    Yea i know, it's rare. This is an item that the Main Auf Haven will drop upon defeating her.
    What is it used for? Well, once you finish the entire Neo Tokyo quest line, you can use two items,
    the Core blaze tip core tip.png and the wing auf wing.png to exchange one Auf dark scroll, to another.
    For me, i will usually exchange the INT one to a STR one. Problem is, there's WAY too many tips in the game right now, and little to no wings. One reason well, not a lot of folks run Auf Haven, and second, the drop rate of it is relatively low.

    Here's what i suggest! What if, the Clones drop the wings instead? There's a total of 7 in a round. That could even out the Core tip to wing ratio.


    4.png
    Now, onto her attacks.

    As of now, the boss is one of if not, the most 'cancerous' boss to fight alongside Dunas V2, as she dispels like no tomorrow. One, which is a global dispel that happens every 90 seconds,
    and an attack based dispel, which is an Orb attack. Feel free to refer to this video below



    A screenshot of the dispel orb
    sadsa.png

    For ranged attackers, the Dispel Orb attack is inevitable, if you are a Night Lord, then hopefully Shifter kicks in, however for the Bowmen and Corsairs, it can be REALLY annoying.

    But Linny! This is an endgame boss it's supposed to be HARD! Yea... i guess.. But looking at the expedition entry rates for Auf Haven from the recent Balance thread, it couuuld be looked into tweaking some stuff.

    So here's a suggestion! I believe a staff member did ask about something like this before on another forum thread so I'd like to give it a shout again. What if the dispel orb could be dodged by ducking? Just like Vergamot's laser and missiles, and Pink Bean's Musical note Seduce.

    BUT LINNY THAT MAKES IT TOO EASY, hmm okay. How about... if you duck while the orb flies over you... it has a 50% chance of no dispel? The orb's animation might have to be slowed down a bit i reckon, as of right now it is very fast, might be too fast to even dodge. Idk, just throwing out ideas, let me know what you guys think.

    Last but not least, her drops.
    Now, her drop table is GOOD, it's not terrible. Take a look at what she drops
    5.png

    Every type of Flairgrave, the Judgement gun, even YSS and Element Pierces.
    Sure, they don't drop as often, as it should for such a rare item. Folks who run this boss, do it mostly for the Auf Haven Circlet. As of now, it drops 1 to 6 helmets when defeated. It is a bit of a bummer for a group of 6 to endure close to an hour or more, only to have one helmet drop.
    I'll post some screenshots of some drops that were in my runs. Take a look!
    1.png 2.png 3.png 8.png 9.png

    I'm kidding, these are the dry runs yes, there's also some good ones!
    These are rare-ish btw, if only we got these many all the time :')
    6.png 7.png 10.png image.png

    So here's my suggestion! Instead of a minimum of 1 helmet, what if it was... 3? So even a group of 6, everyone gets a try at one helmet (assuming both runs drop 3)

    Coin pouch rates... For mid level funded folks, where they will probably use 3 apples per person, if a pouch drops, it's enough to cover apple costs. Currently its rate is 0 to 2 pouches, and is classified as (Super Common), would it be pushing it to suggest maybe, 0 to 3 pouches? Like how Pink Bean drops up to 3 pouches as well? Ehh.. maybe I'm pushing it, but that's all i got for now! It's late so I'll publish this first, I might edit it in between if i have any new things i would like to add. Thanks for reading, and feel free to discuss!

    Oh also, if you would like to learn almost everything about this boss, i have a Comprehensive guide video here. Take a look if you like!



    2.png 3.png 4.png 5.png
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2023
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  2. OmbReanrd
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    OmbReanrd Stone Golem

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    i guess shaving the bottom part of the orb dp would be a nice addition. It happen really quickly so it would be still relatively hard to pull it off just like it is to with iframe in its current state. It would also allow to not get stunned on body aftter rushing into her to iframe on the dp/stun animation then who know the sed comming after haha
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2023
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  3. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    For properly washed ranged, the dispel orb doesn't make the fight harder, just more annoying. Dispel only makes the fight harder for unwashed/low-washed characters and mages, which seems like a weird group to try to punish.

    Also in terms of drops and profitability, I'm going to take some wild assumptions here (maybe you have been tracking drops and can provide better info here?)
    Let's assume Auf drops an average of 1 pouch a run for an average of 15 coins and 1 Equip at an average of 18m each run, for an average of 2.5 coins and 3m mesos per runner. If we value the coins at 3.4m each, this is a total revenue of 11.5m mesos per run.

    If we assume this is a run of average-strength but well-washed players and each non-Bishop player is using 3 apples each (valued at 3m mesos each), and it's a mixed composition of 1 Warrior (1000 Hons), 1 Bucc (600 Hons), 1 Shad (300 Hons), and 2 Ranged (600 Hons each) and a Bishop (0 Hons) for a total of 2500 Hons (10.5m mesos total), and lets assume the runners are all equally splitting the costs of the run (1.75m mesos per runner for Hons, 9m for apples), this is a total of 10.75m mesos cost per runner per run.

    Let's finally assume the run takes 1 hour exactly to clear.

    Because it's difficult to value the helm, I won't include it here, but we are now looking at an average profit of 750,000 mesos per run per runner for an average-strength run, or 750,000 mesos per hour. Even assuming an extraordinarily strong run using 0 apples and a 40 min run, we're still looking at a profit of barely 15m mesos per hour.

    The suggestion to up the Pouch drop from 0-2 to 0-3 changes very little in terms of how wildly unprofitable this fight it. You would be better off farming snails in HHG2 for gacha tickets.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2023
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  4. Tarnished
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    Tarnished Pac Pinky

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    I do have 2 wishes for Auf:

    1. Especially as the end game boss For Melees™, I wish Auf was more profitable. Most folks who can PB pretty much try to PB off cooldown - we're not seeing the same demand to fight Auf. If I had to guess at balance intentions, I'd say selling Auf helm is meant to be a revenue source. But since the level req. on Auf is so high, any potential helm buyer might as well join as an attacker. That's assuming any squads are even able to sell helm service.

    2. The Dispel Orb: I might just be too boomer for mushroom game but IMO this mechanic is too hard to outplay. The animation is really fast - you might be able to rush into body if you're really paying attention but IME if you're in middle of an attack, even with a Fast(4) weapon, you're very unlikely to move in time. And if you're a ranged attacker, good luck out there lol. Making it duck-able could be a feasible adjustment but that would mostly benefit ranged attackers due to the travel time on the orb projectile. I think just making this dispel more like PB music notes in terms of outplay-ability would be a nice level of difficulty; Right now it's mostly suffering.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2023
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  5. OP
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    Lin
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    Lin Headless Horseman

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    If you are a 175 player and wants to buy a 'helmet service', have you been playing the game MapleF12

    PUT IN DA WORK!
     
  6. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    Listen Lin, he know alots!
     
  7. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    Actually I wanted to add in one note here that I'm not actually sure if the best way to balance the fight is through profitability, as variance on how profitable the run is swings wildly with composition, gear, and player skill, and I think honestly the most detrimental part of the fight isn't necessarily the loss in expected profits but rather how tedious of a fight it is. It's a long fight filled with constant rebuffing, and I'd imagine even if the fight were decently profitable most players would be hesitant to run it regularly due to how mentally taxing the fight is (and not necessarily in a way of "this fight is challenging and fun" but more in a "this is a mind-numbing task" way).

    There's also the issue that if the fight became profitable for regular runners (say, 35m per hour revenue, 25m per hour profit), it now becomes obscenely profitable for excessively strong and optimized 0 apple 40 min runs (>40m per hour profit).
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2023
  8. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    Very nice post lin, it has been a lot of time since I last ran auf (the boss was so cancer I immediately quit hosting as soon as I finished my helmet), so some of my statements might be outdated.


    I very much agree with you that it is a "melee" based boss, but I think that this isn't the greatest design. I think that instead this boss should favor "cleave" a bit more. When I last ran, the two best classes were buccaneer and paladin, and even though 3 clones would be summoned, it was actually more efficient to take them down 1 by 1.

    The reason for this is that the clones appeared to heal each other, as well as the auf boss. So, the extra cleave damage dealt on the clones ended up being negated by the extra healing from the other clones.

    Perhaps a change where the clones can only heal the main auf, or healed clones at a reduced rate could help with this and make the cleave damage matter a bit more.

    The dispel mechanics made it feel like mages underneath a certain HP threshold were essentially unplayable.

    As a warrior, you can counter the dispel by tanking auf to get iframes to dodge the orb attack. As a range, you are pretty much forced to hope that the attack results in a miss. You can also rework your base stats so that you can wear your weapon / equipment without maple warrior - so that you need to rebuff 1 less thing before you start attacking again. I think ducking to avoid dispel, or reducing the dispel orbs hitbox size can help. It would definitely be positive if some kind of character movement could be used to reduce the amount of times you get dispelled.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2023
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  9. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Removing the one-of-a-kind limitation would add replay value to runs for a BiS item with an overly restrictive and RNG-based scrolling system. Giving players a chance to upgrade their helmet without dropping their currently usable/fully scrolled one would add a lot of incentive for players to keep running for the marginal improvements (sense of progressive growth), rather than the current practice we see of upcycling (NPC HTP, Zak Helms, Scar Helms once it's been replaced by something higher).

    I also agree with blen that profitability shouldn't be the main incentive (especially comparisons of EV/time as that would have a ton of variability between comps/parties), but increasing the floor value would make things feel better for everyone. I've always been a fan of bossing points as a means to track progress, but having one specifically for Auf might be too convoluted of a solution.

    I'm hesitant to suggest things since I haven't run Auf myself, but my first thought was to have pouches shifted so that it drops Pouch 3 and Pouch 4 instead of just 2x pouch 3s. Another would be to increase the total exp gained from Auf so that it could at least compare to Horntail, which is also being run mostly for exp with a low chance of splits.
     
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  10. OP
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    Lin
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    Lin Headless Horseman

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    Auf Haven's exp is quite good for me, as a Paladin i used to white the clones and the main body quite often, i would get 3~4% from one round, as a level 190+

    Then my Shadower friend started running more often and now he whites MapleF18
     
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  11. mard
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    mard Mixed Golem Retired Staff

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    Actually last week we tested whether it was actually more efficient to take the clones down 1 by 1 (since this was the prevailing belief), but we actually got through the triplets much quicker (a few minutes faster for the triplet phase) when the pallies were cleaving rather than blasting. For context, we would have one bucc handling aggro for auf while two pallies, a corsair, a bm, and a bishop would be attacking the clones.
     
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  12. OP
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    Lin
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    Lin Headless Horseman

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    Yes, choosing to blast one clone or all three together is circumstantial. If you have two or three players that can cleave, then yes, it is way more efficient to use your mobbing skill to hit all 3.

    If there's more Ranged attackers, then it might be better to take down one at a time, while the other two floats on the other side of the map.

    Here's an example. I did a run with two shadowers, and two corsairs. When the clones came out, I blasted all three together to find the 'oldest' one in the map that would keep taking my blast hits. I then rushed it out so the Corsairs could Beacon it. Then I brought all three to the right and started to ACB, the shadowers then proceeded to Assassinate BStep. So the Assassinate would hit the oldest clone, and the Corsairs would just cannon the crap out of that one clone. That one died really quick
     
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  13. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    Interesting, I suppose I thought otherwise because my group originally only had 1 paladin, and rest single target (2x bucc, 1x paladin, 1x sair, 1x bishop). It looks like auf is more balanced than I thought. I guess only changes that are really needed is some more counter play against dispel.
     
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  14. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    Well, I'd say balanced as far as cleaving classes which still target well (pally elemental abuse and shad avoid efficiency). Using actual "cleave-identity" classes would still lead to significant time losses on the single target portions (the rest of the fight).
     
  15. SaviorSword
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    SaviorSword Dark Stone Golem

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    Add in a chair drop!

    While yar at it, give Royal Guard and Core Blaze a chair too! joymush
     
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  16. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Need to make those chairs first, but one day it'd be cool to have as it fits with Neo Tokyo to have a chair for each boss
     
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  17. OP
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    Lin
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    Lin Headless Horseman

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    I made an unofficial 'Core Blaze chair' last year, very reminiscent of the christmas box chair and that other washing machine chair that only GMs can use.

    I'm a lil free today, lets see if i can goof around and make a supposed Auf Haven chair.

    core blaze chair.png
     
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  18. OP
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    Lin
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    Lin Headless Horseman

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    Woah wth, i was researching and turns out, the modern maple has Auf Haven chairs, albeit they have animations and probably a crazy pixel jipiddy job that might be too complex for ver 0.62, but this is good reference. There's three different ones.
    1.png
    Chair_Radiant_Aufheben_Chair_(animated).gif
     
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  19. SaviorSword
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    SaviorSword Dark Stone Golem

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    Do ya sit on her lap? Her head? o.o
     
  20. OP
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    Lin Headless Horseman

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    Whatever you desire man

    Jokes aside idk, I wasn't able to find a screenshot of a character sitting on one
     

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