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Buff Crimson Arclancer & Crimson Arcanon (for a healthier CWK Exchange experience)

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Feeed, Aug 24, 2021.

?

  1. yes to both

    27 vote(s)
    77.1%
  2. yes to proposal #1 only

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. yes to proposal #2 only

    3 vote(s)
    8.6%
  4. no

    5 vote(s)
    14.3%
  1. Feeed
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    Feeed Mr. Anchor

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    8:48 PM
    Feeed
    Corsair
    The Problem

    For those unaware, Crimson Arclancer and Crimson Arcanon are two of the possible rewards from the new CWK Exchange quest option (I know they're also rewards from the old exchanges, bear with me on this).

    However, unlike their polearm counterpart, they're almost entirely useless. I'll explain why in a minute. For now, please trust me in saying that they're essentially NPC fodder, selling for 1.1m and 1.2m respectively.

    This essentially means that FOUR of the possible eight rewards from the exchange are trash. If we include low WA Crimson Arcglaives (let's say the bottom 1/3) and use the Community Rates for an approximation, this means we have a ~44.54% chance of getting next to nothing from the exchange. For the amount of effort required and for the fact that you need to high level character to farm it efficiently, I think we can all agree that's a bit absurd.

    "BUT FEEED", you may be asking yourself, "ARE YOU SERIOUSLY ASKING TO BUFF SOMETHING THAT GIVES YOU 15M PER HOUR?!?". My sweet summer child, please understand that you only get anywhere close to that value when you pull White Scrolls. Those pulls SEVERELY inflate your expected meso/h- the MEDIAN pull is SIGNIFICANTLY lower, and that's a much more reliable metric in scenarios with extreme outliers.

    You do not get 15m per exchange, you get an average of 15m/h ONLY IF you do HUNDREDS of exchanges. Without the (very rare) White Scroll, you get an average of 4-5m per hour at most from the exchange. Plus, when WS prices eventually come down, the expected value will tank as well.

    What I'm asking for is a buff to two of the weapons so that the rewards are NORMALIZED (e.g. you get -something- more often than nothing). This would likely be a very minor buff to the expected value in the short term, but would hopefully result in more people participating in the exchange, more WS getting pulled, and the value of WS dropping as well, so it all kind of balances out.

    ffs get to the point already

    By buffing two of the rewards, we can make the overall exchange more worthwhile without buffing the expected value by an insane amount. Plus, selling good items to players result in people being taxed, and this is a good thing for our economy especially given its current state.

    Proposal #1: Reduce the STR requirement of the Crimson Arclancer from 115 to 105 to match a White Nisrock's.

    The White Nisrock and the Dragon Shiner Bow, the two most comparable bows, both severely outclass the Crimson Arclancer. Here's why:

    White Nisrock: 105 STR req, 90-100 Weapon Attack, 0-2 Avoid
    Dragon Shiner Bow: 115 STR req, 95-105 Weapon Attack, 9-13 Speed
    Crimson Arclancer: 115 STR req, 90-100 Weapon Attack, 1-3 DEX, 4-6 Speed (edit: is also a faster bow than the other two, thank you JaewonnieJaewonnie)

    The Crimson Arclancer has the same STR req as a higher tier bow, but the same weapon attack as the lower tiered bow- and in exchange, you get pity stats and a slightly faster Arrow Rain. How does this make any sense? At the very least, a Crimson Arclancer should be competitive with a White Nisrock. It would likely be a bit more expensive due to the extra stats and the sweet ass look. This is a good thing, as it buffs a garbage exchange reward and taxes players on trade.

    Proposal #2: Reduce the LUK requirement of the Crimson Arcanon from 98 to 0.

    "You want to BUFF MAGES?!"
    "Staves are SUPPOSED to have LUK you pepega"

    Shhhhh let me finish.

    First of all, this would really only impact Priests/Bishops, as the Elemental Wand family is significantly better for F/Ps and I/Ls (the Arcanon has a +32 MA advantage but no elemental boosts)

    Second, the level requirement for the Crimson Arcanon is 100, which means it's really only useful in the Lv. 100-Lv. 130 range before a Priest/Bish upgrades to their Ele Wand 5-8 (which beat out the Arcanon even in raw stats by 28 MA). This is a notoriously awful level range for just about everyone and is prime time for leech- a very small buff to people actually playing the game isn't the worst thing in the world (and doesn't help out multimagers)

    Third of all, in what world should a Lv. 100 weapon have nearly the same LUK requirement as its Lv. 150 Timeless counterpart? I understand this is a problem with INT vs. LUK mages in general, BUT-

    Fourth, there's precedent in evil-looking NLC staves having no LUK requirement- just look right over to our friend, the Nocturnal Staff.

    This change makes the Crimson Arcanon a desirable, but not necessary upgrade with a limited window of utility. Still, people would buy it, and people buying things helps them, helps the exchange, and helps the economy. A small exception to the "staves have LUK" rule for a rather unique one doesn't break any principles of Maple's design, and is arguably on brand with the other NLC weapons.

    Conclusion

    tl;dr getting nothing almost half the time feels bad, please help me feel less bad while also giving people cool new viable weapons

    (Seriously though, with small buffs to two of the rarer rewards, I hope to encourage more people to participate in the exchange by making it more worthwhile on individual pulls.)
     
    • Agree Agree x 13
    • Like Like x 6
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1
  2. Jaewonnie
    Offline

    Jaewonnie Capt. Latanica

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    Apr 21, 2020
    Crimsonwood Mountain: Cavern of Pain
    8:48 PM
    PAWGChamp
    Buccaneer
    Disagree because I already NPCed all of mine :mad:

    Jk I agree small buffs would be nice. Arclancer has the benefit of being a Speed (5) bow which I guess helps those few BMs that grind at 7F but I'm not sure if the extra str requirement nulls any gain from the improved arrow rain speed.

    +1

    Edit: Also I think it's 15m EV per exchange and I think 90 min is the average completion time. So prolly closer to 10m/hr EV
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  3. OP
    OP
    Feeed
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    Feeed Mr. Anchor

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    Feeed
    Corsair
    Thanks for the clarification on bow speed btw :)

    I'm aware I'm mix and matching numbers, but the point of using 15m/h was to point out that even if you assume the best case scenario, it is not realistic to expect 15m per exchange in the short term. This is something you really have to commit to over several months for that to even possibly START being true.

    I'm also being hyperbolic in that even if you assume the best case scenario, a buff to the Arclancer/Arcanon does not even begin to make the exchange too good.

    I mentioned in my post on the community thread but yes absolutely, I think 1h30 is a much more representative completion time, I think I only did it in 1h15min a handful of times when the badge RNG was in my favor.
     
  4. SmellyCat
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    SmellyCat King Slime

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    Jun 9, 2021
    8:48 PM
    Bowmaster
    Agreed, partly for selfish reasons as bowmaster main and the Crimson Arclancer being my favorite bow. That aside I do feel like the current tier of rewards tend discourage general farmers, like you mentioned about half of the result are relatively useless/not profitable which leads to the vicious cycle of people farm>get discouraged by results> stop/take a break from it> which does not help the ws situation. Also it would help if Subani Ankh was not soo useless, make it like an exchange item, get 50 Subani Ankn's here's an ap reset or something.
     
  5. braidgame
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    braidgame Pac Pinky

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    8:48 AM
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    I think it will be great if the price pool also contain some upgraded raven weapons(dusk, dawn and night version). These originally can be crafted by Fiona as other crimson weapons should be, I know some of them may not be intriguing (such as every upgraded version of raven beakMapleF18) but weapons like night raven claw and wings would be beneficial for higher level players demand of fast and less requirement weapons.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  6. OP
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    Feeed
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    Feeed Mr. Anchor

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    Gotta be careful not to dilute the prizepool with more low value items though :^)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. OP
    OP
    Feeed
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    Feeed Mr. Anchor

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    Bump with what the CWK exchange ends up looking like when you're not pulling White Scrolls
    (this is with above average Fury pulls too)

    A White Scroll "fixes" the result (bumps to 9-10m/h), but boy oh boy does it feel bad until that happens

    tl;dr
    4.6m/hour from exchange, pull garbage (~1m or less) 60.95% of the time after 35 pulls with no WS

    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  8. Thuglifer
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    Thuglifer Capt. Latanica

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  9. OP
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    Feeed
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    Feeed Mr. Anchor

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  10. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    Wow wow wow Feeed, don't have such high expectations here.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. Thuglifer
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    Thuglifer Capt. Latanica

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    just saying damn ure unlucky, and to avoid any confusion of any readers of it's actual full larger data set in the link with values. no wrong in that
     
  12. Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    Hero, Bishop, Marksman, Shadower, Buccaneer, Corsair
    His experience isn't that much of an outlier and is useful to readers in that it does reveal a side about the exchange that isn't gleaned from just looking at the average. With the currently listed 3.88% figure for WS, it takes on average almost 26 runs before you get one, which is to say that until you've done at least 38.6 hours of farming you really are likely making sub 5m/hr.

    Also, the linked table is a bit out of date; WS are down from 230m to 190m. Furthermore, that meso/hour figure is inflated by both gachas and pickpocket (which can add about a mil by itself). After removing these two from the valuation and updating for current WS price, the meso/hr comes down to about 11m, which is certainly still respectable. I'm also being a bit generous by leaving the current valuation of arcglaives alone, which is likely to be significantly deflated with the flooding of PSBs. However, when it comes to high outlier data where EV is carried almost entirely by a single rare item, the data is better represented by the median (there's a reason why we use median salary over mean salary), and the median meso/hr here is 4.7m, which arguably better reflects one's experience doing the exchange than simply looking at the average.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  13. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    Can we just all acknowledge that any feast-or-famine raffles/exchanges should not be considered for a reasonable EV/hr?
    It's a horrendous (yet probably mathematically accurate) system for evaluating hourly profits.

    To clarify; feeed made a great point. Yes, the EV might be considerably high if you value in the price of WS, but until you get a WS, this exchange is absolutely a waste of time compared to various other ways of farming meso
     
  14. OP
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    Feeed
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    Feeed Mr. Anchor

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    (also to clarify, Im not asking for the WS drop rate to be buffed or the exchange to be modified in a significant way, just the str and luk reqs of the arclancer/arcanon respectively so that rewards from non-WS runs have more of a chance to not be a waste of time)
     

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