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Display a message when someone used high att pots like Onyx Apple

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Kirisame, Feb 18, 2024.

  1. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    I mean to be fair, if apple skimping isn't an issue then there's little expense for the runners. If anything, additional chat messages during Statues are helpful for bumping status up and refreshing the chatlog, as you'll frequently see runners just type garbage in chat so it doesn't become a long stream of Darkness.
     
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  2. Milkydoor
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    To be completely clear, I don't think that apple skimping is never an issue, just that I don't think it is one in my runs. I'm just concerned (if it wasn't expedition opt-in) about adverse social effects like apple pressuring, bullying, boasting, shaming, and so on.

    On that note though, a chat log refresh, divider, colour marker, timestamping or whatever would absolutely be so nice!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    We joke about shaming but can you really ever defend someone who skimps - for selfish gain or for any reason? I personally couldn't, and I'd feel slighted if the host were to take half-measures for social appeasement if the situation were to ever come up. Trust is such an important aspect and yet is so fragile.
     
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  4. Milkydoor
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    Again, I've never made any statement in defence of skimping. Thanks for the feedback, but the trust we build with runners as hosts is precisely because we navigate the whole plethora of social situations with an appropriate degree of delicacy and discretion.
     
  5. thechild
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    thechild Dark Stone Golem

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    I too am struggling about the skimping of apples n such. Like, is it really that big of an ego killer?
     
  6. mjk
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    Good idea, there are probably cleaner ways to do this but given the backlog of dev work I'm sure exists this seems reasonable.

    Not sure why anyone would be against this.
    - Skimpers are indefensible and right now it's simply too easy to get away with
    - There's exactly one (1) boss in the game where there would be any kind of chat log spam
    - no one should feel embarrassed to pop an apple in normal content, grab a little extra exp and help everyone get outta there quicker :yay:
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
  7. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    Maybe it’s worth doing a deeper dive on some example social situations you’re concerned about, because I’m personally not really seeing it. Do you mind describing a couple theoretical scenarios that you’d want to avoid?

    Also agree timestamping in chat would be fantastic. I’d imagine it would help a lot with record keeping, reporting, verification, and a ton of things not just debuff spam.
     
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  8. Milkydoor
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    Sure, some examples from PB I can think of include:
    • a player forgets to re-apple after res and is publicly shamed for it
    • player a notices player b in the same party is appling in body but still not whiting, so mocks them for it
    • party a notices party b is appling in body but still not whiting, so mocks them for it
    • a player apples in body to dpm for fun or personal development and gets pressured or bullied about not sharing
    • a player brags/bemoans about having to apple to carry the rest of the squad and makes them uncomfortable
    I know these seem relatively minor, but in my experience, all these little micro-conflicts can result in an environment that feels unfriendly and unwelcoming and deters many runners from returning.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  9. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    Ok lemme respond to these 1 at a time

    Scenario 1: the proposed change in theory should help prevent situations like this, as the lack of a chat notification means the host can remind the player to re-Apple after the Rez.

    Scenario 2/3: I can see these happening, although realistically these would be indicative of toxic behavior of individuals that could be addressed directly on a case by case basis, and not something I would anticipate as common. This is a fair concern though.

    Scenario 4: I don’t think people would get bullied for effectively helping others for free. My guess is that people would most likely be grateful here and less likely to be toxic.

    Scenario 5: if a player is going to act like this, this is likely something that player would do, with or without chat notifications, and again indicative of a toxic personality that’s better off avoided.

    I absolutely agree micro conflicts like this can lead to greater tension, but those are events that will happen with or without this feature. Toxic personalities will be toxic regardless of whether this is implemented, and can and should be filtered as they come.

    I think most PB squads currently do not have issues with skimping overall but I know 1 year ago I would’ve loved to have had this feature as a certain squad was absolutely struggling but the host was unwilling to take appropriate policy measures to identify and correct problem behavior and in the end the squad simply died/was absorbed into a different squad, leaving several players without a squad.
     
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  10. Milkydoor
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    1. From what I gather, the proposed change of opt-in to chat notifications means people can still choose to pick on each other about apple usage if they want to.
    4. I think it's tricky to say for sure. Some people would also rather just keep as much private as possible for personal reasons.

    I agree that usually toxic individuals are the cause of the issue and can be directly removed, but I think toxic culture can be a much more nefarious issue if it creeps upon a group. Apple monitoring might not be the catalyst for that, but I'd rather have the choice to avoid it entirely. I'm not opposed to those who want it for their own runs, as in your example and others.
     
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  11. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    1. Hmm but in this scenario, assuming the rezzed person is still expected to re-apple, wouldn't the host having access to the notifications mean they can simply remind this player to apple, meaning there would be no issues?

    4. I still think this is kind of a non-reason personally, since other people knowing you used an apple is hardly a bad thing and something like pot usage privacy seems like a pretty bizarre concept to me, whereas tracking apple usage for PB hosts is a potentially significantly good thing.

    I guess we can chalk it up to a difference in opinion. I don't really feel strongly enough about the potential change that I'm willing to die on this hill as none of the squads I'm on have issues with clear time or apple usage, but I do think it would overall be a net positive for the server.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2024
  12. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    FWIW this isn't feedback about you or your runs in any way. I actually really enjoy milk farm pb and I understand why you keep things the way you do. I'm speaking more specifically in cases where someone skimps at the cost of others, which I'm sure you'd agree is reprehensible and incongruent to the spirit of your runs.

    TBH, I wouldn't consider any of those scenarios you mentioned to be skimping, and any type of bullying or teasing can be dealt with easily, with or without this implementation.

    However, there are other scenarios I've seen over the years from certain types of players. For example, what do you think about someone who brings exactly the number of apples required to a run? Whilst not necessarily against the rules or policy, it shows an indefensible irresponsibility and demeanor which, to me, comes across as very disrespectful to everyone on the run, and I'd find it very strange to try to defend that type of player.

    Systems built upon trust are great when everything is working smoothly, but it only takes a few mishaps for things to come crashing down. A system that leans less on trust and relies instead on strict protocol would IMO be much more stable over the long term. Not to say that trust doesn't exist anymore as I'm sure it still would. You'd just be able to eliminate a lot of confusion that comes from uncertainty and doubt, especially when shit hits the fan.
     
  13. Milkydoor
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    1. Pardon if I'm making a mistake, but how does the host have sole access to apple notifications without being the expedition leader?

    4. For instance, apple privacy can be linked to gear privacy if somebody is underpowered for whatever reason and wants to privately apple to compensate.

    To reiterate, I'm certainly not against this change nor arguing it wouldn't be a net positive for the server, I just want the choice to disable it for my runs.
     
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  14. Milkydoor
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    I agree that my example scenarios are separate from skimping - my concerns are around a non-toggleable implementation potentially cultivating an unfriendly, hostile environment. I personally think it's not necessarily as easy as it seems to tackle these situations in a totally amicable way.

    I'm glad you enjoy our runs and I do like to think that the mutual trust among the squad is a big factor in people's enjoyment. We've had times in the past where strict protocols have upset runners and caused many to leave, so on principle, I always exercise caution whenever bringing down the hammer. I'm not claiming I'd defend the player in either of the situations you've presented (assuming it's intentionally malicious and not an honest mistake), but we don't encounter those situations often, from what I can tell.
     
  15. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    1. Ah, no, it wouldn't be just the host, everyone would have access. I guess I'm just confused what there would be to make fun of since the dead player would just get a reminder from anyone on the run, so it would be nearly impossible to forget and skimp.

    4. I still think these kinds of privacy preferences are non-arguments, as I think hiding gear is just as weird as hiding pot usage. The only thing that really matters is DPM output/that everyone is contributing on an equivalent level as everyone else on a run. How they choose to get there is irrelevant.

    I'm not opposed to making it expedition toggle instead of a client setting tbh.
     
  16. Milkydoor
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    1. Some people strongly dislike that kind of attention, if say people rag on about it, especially if they're having a bad day and die repeatedly. Again, you could say this is such a minor issue, but I think these things add up.

    4. This sounds like a much deeper debate to be had about gear privacy, but I try to be as considerate as possible of what makes people uncomfortable.
     
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  17. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    i had a run recently where i was a total shitter and spent 10 apples and was very unhappy about it, but goddamnit i want the chat notification there so at least everyone knows i'm an honorable shitter

    the game rewarded us too by having 0 pouches drop so i lost hella money on that run
     
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  18. Milkydoor
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    honourable shitter is an excellent title, you should coin that before it's too late !
     
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  19. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    upload_2024-2-20_22-55-10.png
     
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  20. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    I believe this suggestion will make a lot of 30 man runs complete much faster and fail less often.
     
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