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Accepted dunas

Discussion in 'Accepted' started by Soniii, Dec 13, 2020.

  1. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    I never argued that I/L is not in a good spot. I'm just saying that it makes no sense to put them in the comparison here as it does not influence your clear time if you know what you are doing
     
  2. philip
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    philip Mixed Golem

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    you said:" "easy for me" is also a bit odd considering the trash DPM I/L mages put out so at the very best I'd be able to somewhat match my ranged attacker duo at dunas when the run is a bit less smooth but overall their DPM is still higher across the entire run. " to that I just commented: "I think they are in a good place" I mean my Fire Poison mages dies to DR if I use Paralyze on Dunas
     
  3. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    The main gripe I have with all the NT changes is that they're slowly shifting and forcing upon the inconveniences of group bossing content onto NT. I used to NT tour solo because I didn't want to deal with finding runners and distributing splits. If I wanted to deal with all of that, I'd do a different type of expedition that gives better exp. Sure, NT solo would take longer than if I had a group, but that should be a type of play style that's left for those who prefer it. What other bosses can you go afk to brew some coffee, eat lunch, finish up some work, etc.? NT allows for that, except over time it's getting more and more painful to do, and all prior incentives to continue running it keep getting nerfed out of the game.

    The whole coin change doesn't make sense to me. NT tour and coin muling was one social aspect that I really enjoyed, similar to the Anniversary Event's bossing points bonanza with 30+ man runs. I enjoyed seeing people in guild/buddy chat saying "Quick NT tours, bring whatever you want" and having 20+ people show up. I've met several of friends through this. Since the coin mule nerfs, I now only see a few groups of people running consistently with their premade trios, and it's become a much more closed off system. And coin muling was minimized for what reason? Was there even an issue with the NT coin economy? Crafting is already considered overpriced. Making it even harder to farm coins while increasing the drop rates of weapons is doing what for the NT weapon/crafting economy?

    The main concern I have for this server is that for the past year, things keep getting changed and taken away from players under the guise of balance changes, but it seems to me that very little is given back to players to keep them wanting to play.
     
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  4. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    Coin muling has no impact on a player's ability to solo, unless they needed to multiclient 30 characters to attack with hurricane (in which it's debatable if that should be called a "solo"). Additionally, the point about not being able to afk is a tabbed-out hurricane issue, not a coin mule issue.

    The fact of the matter is this game was simply not built around multiclient. In a "closed" system with no multiclient, previously abuseable aspects become much more reasonable. Paladins, meso looting, afk hurricane (maybe), and NT could likely all be at their full capacity, and even mages and nls are a bit more tolerable in single client.

    With multiclient, the game becomes excessively mule2win and thus pay2win. The users that can profit the most are the ones that can load 16 clients at once, whether on one computer or multiple. This is a capability that not everyone has access to, which transcends the game boundaries. This allows those with more powerful (or simply more) setups to reap disgusting rewards.

    And what advantages, exactly, does the Massively Multiclient Online gamer (MMO for short) have? To start on topic, they have the capability to earn 16x more from killing an NT boss. Second, they get around the need for buffs, by keeping a mule joined to the hip at all times. Most NLs practically come pre-packaged with their own SE mule, Warriors with an SI mule, everyone (including mages) with an HS mule. The MMOs characters have access to every buff under the sun at once, not unlike a Rebirth Server. Why would anybody want to interact with other players in an MMO? Why would anybody want to recruit that bishop, archer, dk, or bucc when they already have access to their toolkits, and would only steal exp from and get in the way of the Chad Night Lord?

    We've already seen some of the effects that last one causes: classes have to be able to compete on an equal level across the board in terms of damage alone, lest players of the class be demoted to multuclient mule and have their slot replaced with either another nIgHt lOrD, or just air. There are few situations even inside boss fights where a class with less damage can't be effectively muled for its buffs instead.

    To wrap this back around, I don't see these changes as things being taken away from players with nothing given back. We've already been given the most balance-breaking gift in having multiclient in the first place. A gift we'll be paying off until the eventual end of the server.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
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  5. philip
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    philip Mixed Golem

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    I agree with what you are saying to what I am quotting here I just want to say that the amount of coins dropped from Verga, Dunas, Nibergen and Nameless is the same dropped from GMS and therefore they should not EVER be changed not up or down because it goes againstt the GMS-like ideal. Lets be real the amount of coins are fair
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  6. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I'm not saying that coin muling has impacted the ability to solo, but it has severely reduced any incentive to do so, hence forcibly reshaping the meta into group bossing alternatives. In the past, coin muling arguably made NT worth the time investment for soloing, but it still would not have come close to the likes of multimage farming strategies.

    15 mules in a daily dunas + nameless clear would net slightly less than 1 craft a day. That's 3-4 hours of daily bossing for 30m worth of crafting service + drops, not including the investment in 15 lvl 100+ accounts with full NT questline cleared. Whether you see this as broken or not is debatable.

    As to whether multiclienting makes this server better or worse, that's ultimately debatable as well. I personally wouldn't play this game without its multiclienting features.

    Idk why people continue to use 'GMS-like' as an argument. Even Kimmy has admitted that we're far past being a GMS-like server.
     
  7. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    No content should be gated behind loading as many mule characters as possible into a map to make it more profitable. We can at least respect somebody with multiple simultaneously attacking characters while recognizing how absurd it is that somebody's setup capable of running more dummy clients benefits more.

    I personally wouldn't play this game if mule2win was a requirement to advance.
     
  8. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    How many crafts do you think get generated each day - server-wide? Even if someone went out of their way to purchase every single craft available, the current means to obtain NT weapons is severely limited, don't you think?

    If NT bosses gave something like 600-1000 coins per clear, this conversation would be different. However, nerfing an aspect of this game that was already difficult enough to farm doesn't make sense to me, and punishing people for working around those inefficiencies to obtain a higher mode of production is pretty discouraging - hence my embittered feelings of things always being taken away with little given back in return.

    mule2win has never been a requirement, just like multiclienting has never been a requirement.

    Some people play this game to push the limits of possibilities. It feels like with each update these boundaries are getting pushed smaller and smaller, and we're getting boxed into some close-minded ideology of what 'appropriate gameplay' is.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    -ovv-ovv You are correct that things have been taken away, but I believe you are severely downplaying what has been given back in return.

    NT drop rates have effectively doubled. We are getting literally twice the drops, and if the prestigious coins are implemented, this will be further bolstered. This is a massive buff.

    Sure, you lose out on muling 9 extra clients (assuming you actually did 15 char NT solo), but what is currently stopping you from doing what you were before, but with 6 clients instead of 15?

    Surely the drop rate buffs compensate this loss, and the rest of the community who did not mule so aggressively have a strictly superior neo tokyo compared to before.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. philip
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    philip Mixed Golem

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    it kinda is...


    No one has 16 clients running at once. even my shit laptop 8 years old bought for school and taking notes can still run 4-6 clients and yes its making noice and toasting a lot, but could still sell long hours of leech. With today's standards of computers, anyone can run 4-5 clients I like to think, which is more than enough for most people.
     
  11. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Perhaps I am downplaying to a certain degree - I haven't run NT nearly as much as I used to because of the changes that nearly double my solo time. I have noticed a slight increase in drops, but they're mostly for naught. It's mostly junk NPC/NT weapons that I can't sell in the market and have no use for. At the end of the day, an increase in drop rates only encourage running larger groups to take advantage of faster clear times and more drop chances, but it takes away from solo play.

    Sure, if we're only considering economic benefits, the average payout for NT increased, but the means to produce NT weapons through crafting got nerfed at a much higher rate. For players like me that just wanted a means to craft weapons, we got shafted pretty heavily. My floor payout went from 4200 coins/day to 1680 while the time it takes to achieve that nearly doubled.

    Perhaps if they implemented a coin exchange system for NT weapons that could recycle them into coins...
     
  12. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    The number of crafts per day is a flawed metric to determine if the system is being abused. NT drop buffs have been asked for many times since the content was released, but could never be given in the mule state; the earnings per run simply had to be calculated at 30 characters per run. The "crafts per day" is only indicative of even massively muled NT content being reasonable but STILL not being superior to other sweaty strategies such as multimage, hence many people not bothering abusing the gap. If graves were more than a minor upgrade over dragon, crafting value goes up, and there would be significantly more attention on multi-muling. Party size restriction closes off an unbalanceable mechanic of the game with regards to multiclienting to allow for buffs to even be possible in the first place. Whether or not those buffs are enough is a different, slightly subjective question altogether. Defending the old system is only gatekeeping the content around "muh mules". Even if it's not fully balanced, it IS in a much healthier state than before.
    And I reiterate that this was predominantly a MULTICLIENT problem. Maxing out the runner slots was the optimal way to maximize the value per kill, using a squad the size of larger pb raids to down the boss fast and reap the largest rewards per kill. Even without multiclient this poses a bizarre arrangement that once the novelty of 30 man NT wears off, people would get annoyed and either complain or circumvent the single client restriction to lead to where we were before the change. With multiclient, this scheme doesnt reward having enough levels/gear to kill faster or even solo, but rather rewards having a more powerful machine to have a higher boss kill multiplier. There is no way to balance that kind of content without first placing the assumption that every squad/player is capable of running with a degenerate one-man mule army.
    And let's make sure everyone is on the same page here: the cited longer NT solo clear times are not necessarily a factor of NT/boss changes, but rather the removal of afk hurricane(s). The only boss that the casting rework severely impacted is nib, which usually was not cited as a highly muled boss in the first place. Dunas/nameless alike (the most easily multimuled) were often frozen/aggro abused with a mage out of reach to prevent them from DRing/clawing.

    Tl;Dr the party size restriction is a necessary evil to allow NT content to be brought into the metagame proper. Whether old coin muling was a detriment on the market, as well as whether the current drop rates are tuned enough are both irrelevant to the issue.
     
  13. Gurk
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    Gurk Headless Horseman

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    Off-topic but:
    Are you sure about that? That sounds like a bug if that's really the case, although it looks like Dunas is immune to poison anyways.
    Damn, the systematic discrimination against poison element is real. And here I always thought FP was better than IL at Dunas.

    As for being on topic, NT boss EV has indeed more or less doubled, which for better or worse, would only make up for the loss of ~3-6 coin mules. In other words, one would only see a significant loss if they were regularly bringing in more than one party's worth of mules.
     
  14. Jaewonnie
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    Jaewonnie Capt. Latanica

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    I would also add that NT coins are at an all-time low at 5k per coin. I don't think restricting party sizes affected coin prices a bit if at all.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I'm not even gatekeeping the recent changes - I also believe that NT needed a drop rate buff for a long time. However, my main argument is whether or not the coin muling change was even warranted in the scope of the entire NT economy. Even with its currently buffed drop rate, would existing coin muling push NT past other broken means of farming? Posts above seem to suggest otherwise.

    Actually, the most noticeable change is the casting spells as soon as it's off cooldown change that came with PB's re-release. The Dunas vertical range increase was a huge factor in solo clear times since it eliminated a safe spot for bishops to conveniently dispel the overly excessive debuffs and for mage summons to passively hit from below. The alt-tab hurricane change was only a minor setback since it can be footmuled pretty easily, so I'd write that off as more of an inconvenience change more than anything.
     

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