1. Hello!

    First of all, welcome to MapleLegends! You are currently viewing the forums as a guest, so you can only view the first post of every topic. We highly recommend registering so you can be part of our community.

    By registering to our forums you can introduce yourself and make your first friends, talk in the shoutbox, contribute, and much more!

    This process only takes a few minutes and you can always decide to lurk even after!

    - MapleLegends Administration-
  2. Experiencing disconnecting after inserting your login info? Make sure you are on the latest MapleLegends version. The current latest version is found by clicking here.
    Dismiss Notice

Make Axe Viable Again

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Badminwei, Dec 9, 2019.

  1. Badminwei
    Offline

    Badminwei Mushmom

    51
    3
    60
    Jun 9, 2017
    Male
    5:33 AM
    MrBlueBlack
    Hero
    200
    Hi,

    The title of the thread says it all! Firstly, I am a 17x hero (hybrid axe and sword user) cuz I personally liked the appeals of an axe as well as the hype of a sword.

    I'm thankful for the recent release of NT, where players can now craft their own end game weapons (or wait for a lucky drop from the bosses).

    However, the situation now is that even with the new NT weapons, some weapons are comparably less viable than others (in terms of attack speed and of course, overall dpm). Why is that so though?

    [comparing between 1h axe and 1h sword]
    Speaking of experience, I know that 1h axe gives you a wider range (lower base and higher top range) while 1h sword gives you a lower range; albeit one that is more consistent in terms of dpm. Comparatively, 1h axe loses out to 1h sword in terms of dpm, this is especially so when 1h axe usually as of a lower speed tier than 1h sword (ie 1h sword hits faster than 1h axe). This statement is made in reference to the end game NT weapons - NT sword (fast 4) vs NT axe (fast 5).

    As a result, I almost don't see any hybrid heros in the server (or axe hero so to speak) because it's simply not viable to have it. I would like to propose, if possible, that axe users be REVIVED by making the end game axes the same speed tier (fast 4) as their swords counterparts. I think not for selfish reasons but for a simple one just to balance out the weapons :) The change wouldnt give axe users an unfair advantage to the sword counterparts as the weapon is
    1) hard to get/craft (same as the sword counterparts)
    2) same speed tier meaning there's no unfair advantage in terms of dpm dealt.

    I'm open to any comments :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 16
    • Like Like x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1
  2. cakesogood
    Offline

    cakesogood Windraider

    422
    54
    301
    Oct 2, 2017
    Male
    Japan
    5:33 AM
    Demun, kokushibo
    Hero
    200
    Honor
    yes very good suggestion
    but in order for this to be implemented, we need to give free sp resets to those heroes who went the two-handed long sword route. So they can switch to axe if it is more viable

    also, many (tomahawks) item that drop from ulu2 are frequently Npced so if we give axes a speed buff it may affect those who have not saved them up.

    just a few stuff to take note of
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. OP
    OP
    Badminwei
    Offline

    Badminwei Mushmom

    51
    3
    60
    Jun 9, 2017
    Male
    5:33 AM
    MrBlueBlack
    Hero
    200
    Not that extreme as to balance out all the axes though, what I meant is not for axes to be made more viable than swords or the other way around, but for both axes/swords to be equally viable/balanced in terms of the end game content (as of right now, 1h NT axe gives much lesser dpm than 1h NT sword due to its speed tier)

    I feel that SP resets can be saved up overtime so it isn't a really pressing issue. But to see more variety of characters (e.g axe-wielding heroes) ard maplelegends would definitely make the game more fun and enticing, and would be a step forward in encouraging people to take up weapons that were previously thought to be less viable.
     
  4. akashsky
    Online

    akashsky Horntail

    2,067
    861
    495
    Jun 10, 2017
    Male
    United States
    2:33 PM
    Disparity
    Corsair
    200
    Pasta
    1h axe is certainly bad, but the 2h axe seems decent.

    http://maplelegends.com/lib/equip?id=01412037

    Library shows it as normal (6) which puts it on par with most 2h swords. It also comes with 2 more attack than a sword, so I guess maybe its not that much worse in terms of dpm?
     
  5. OP
    OP
    Badminwei
    Offline

    Badminwei Mushmom

    51
    3
    60
    Jun 9, 2017
    Male
    5:33 AM
    MrBlueBlack
    Hero
    200
    I just hope to further elaborate with these 4 examples, hopefully to put things into perspective:

    1) 2h NT axe - max wa 115, normal (6) versus 2h NT sword - max wa 113, normal (6)
    2) 1h NT axe - max wa 110, fast (5) versus 1h NT sword - max wa 105, fast (4)
    3) 2h stonetooth sword - max wa 106, fast (5) and 2h dragon claymore - max wa 110, normal (6)
    4) 2h colonian axe - max wa 104, normal (6) and 1h dragon axe - max wa 106, normal (6)
    *not mentioning the 2h dragon battle axe that has a max wa of 111 but a speed of slow (7) that is simply too pathetic to put into comparison*

    First of all
    Previously, before the release of NT, we can clearly see why axe heroes are not viable. As shown in 3), stonetooth sword has the highest speed tier as compared to 4) the axe counterparts and has been confirmed and shown in other forum posts to deal the most dpm (without SI support).
    With SI support, dragon claymore (a 2h sword) outshines stonetooth and all other axes due to the fact that it has the highest wa. This makes axe heroes almost completely absent from the server.

    Now that Neo Tokyo is released
    NT weapons take on a new arena as the end game weapons and I believe this is the time to make changes to the previous imbalances that I feel should have been corrected (or at least looked into).

    Speaking of 1) yes I do agree with akashskyakashsky that 2h NT axe is equally viable (deals comparable dpm) as 2h NT sword due to the fact that both weapons are of the same speed tier and similar in wa. The fact that axes generally have a larger attack range would mean that the overall dmg is less consistent, which justifies why 2h NT axe is 'compensated' with 2 more wa (max wa 115) as compared to 2h NT sword (max wa 113). Overall, both weapons will deal similar dpm (regardless of SI support).

    However, 2) is rightfully pointed out by akashskyakashsky as well that the disparity here is seemingly large, due to the fact that both weapons have different speed tiers and while 1h NT axe is 'compensated' with 5 more wa (max wa 110) than 1h NT sword (max wa 105), the 5 higher wa of the axe simply cannot match up to its sword counterpart due to the difference in attacking speed, hence leading to a lower dpm dealt by an axe user (I have tested and proven this point personally with my 1h NT axe and 1h NT sword).

    Does the disparity here unintentionally discourage 1h axe users? Yes I believe so.

    I am therefore proposing a change/review (and with the following justifications)
    >> Changing the attacking speed of 1h NT axe to fast (4), same as that of 1h NT sword.

    The question now is whether such a change will make 1h NT axe more OP than 1h NT sword, or even more OP than 2h NT axe and sword?
    >> My answer is No, for the following reasons:
    a) while 1h NT axe has 2 wa more than 1h NT sword, the fact that the axe has a larger attack range means that the damage dealt is less consistent as compared to the 1h NT sword, hence both weapons will dish out similar dpm.

    b) the presence of SI support does not come into argument here. 2h NT axe and 2h NT sword will outshine the 1h NT counterparts when SI is available, simply because the 2h NT weapons wields higher wa. The same argument used for a) can be used when comparing 2h NT axe with 2h NT sword, and both of them will do similar dpm nonetheless.

    All in all, I would like to reiterate that this post was made NOT with the intention to seek for a total revamp of axes or swords but for the sole purpose of balancing end game weapons (particularly 1h NT axe) - to minimise disparity between the weapon and its counterpart (e.g. 1h NT axe versus 1h NT sword and so on). This is to encourage players to enjoy more combinations of their preferred end game set-up while still maintaining a level-playing field.

    Thank you!
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. OP
    OP
    Badminwei
    Offline

    Badminwei Mushmom

    51
    3
    60
    Jun 9, 2017
    Male
    5:33 AM
    MrBlueBlack
    Hero
    200
    hmm, any more feedback on this? tryna bump this thread
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Skuire
    Offline

    Skuire Nightshadow

    636
    1,094
    380
    Aug 16, 2017
    3:33 PM
    Skucci
    Shadower
    Code:
    One Handed Sword
    STR * 4.0
    
    Two Handed Sword
    STR * 4.6
    Code:
    One Handed Axe (Swinging)
    STR * 4.4
    One Handed Axe (Stabbing)
    STR * 3.2
    
    Two Handed Axe (Swinging)
    STR * 4.8
    Two Handed Axe (Stabbing)
    STR * 3.4
    I'm no expert on maple numbers, but I think ^this is also part of the reason axes are so shite. The inconsistent multiplier combined with the fact that Brandish incorporates both a "swing" and a "stab" makes it straight up worse for axe-wielding Heroes. In addition to what you've stated about weapon speeds, maybe we could do well to tweak the multiplier on axes?
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  8. cakesogood
    Offline

    cakesogood Windraider

    422
    54
    301
    Oct 2, 2017
    Male
    Japan
    5:33 AM
    Demun, kokushibo
    Hero
    200
    Honor
    axe should be buffed to be able to hit +1/2 monsters with brandish
     
  9. Ryae
    Offline

    Ryae Wolfspider

    571
    1,098
    356
    Apr 17, 2015
    Female
    USA (West Coast)
    2:33 PM
    Ryae
    Night Lord
    143
    Nimbus
    I don't have any knowledge/experience with axe heroes (or any heroes for that matter), but I wonder if MangaFox156MangaFox156 has any input on this? OnionF6
     
  10. bluetapeboy
    Offline

    bluetapeboy Red Snail

    7
    1
    16
    Oct 15, 2018
    Male
    5:33 PM
    WillardDog
    Fighter
    32
    first off, before I say anything regarding axes, can everyone who opened this thread already thinking:

    "ah geez not these fricken axe nerds again no one cares about axes, swords are meta, #nochanges, buffed axes are not GMS LIKE, buffed axes are not in the spirit of maple, axes and blunt weapons are SUPPOSED to be inferior for le "unique" class status so that shum shpeshul uwu unicorns can feel schupper dupper shpeschul UWU LE #NOCHANGES [except to everything but AXES] SCREW AXES IN PARTICULAR"

    WHAT DID GIMLI DO TO YOU AS A CHILD, HUH?

    DID YOUR DRUNK ABUSIVE STEPDAD MAKE YOU CHOP WOOD 16 HOURS A DAY IN THE SUMMER HEAT CHOPPING WOOD WITH AN AXE?

    SCREW ALL THE AXE HATERS. THIS SERVER IS SO CUSTOM. IF YOU WANT LAME DEAD CRAPPY AXES GO TO PEENIX WITH YOUR SMALL PEENIS. YOU ARE ALL SO WEAPONIST. THE ELITIST BOURGEOISIE SWORD SCUM WILL BE OVERTHROWN. ALL HAIL THE PROLETARIAT AXE (and blunt weapon)

    Seriously please just make axes the same speed as swords. It's not that hard. Stop being aids. Keep BW slower than sword/axe but give an even bigger att increase to give uwu unicorns a hard on for paladins (so heros can be free of their perverted presence; we are HEROS after all, not lame virgin edgelords who play maple in furry suits)

    #FREEAXES

    Same speed at all levels (even level 70 1H!). Give axes their own "stonetooth".

    Idgaf about the formula. Buff it if you want. Axes are so inferior its not even funny. If you still want to keep swords as the master race, fine, but make them JUST better. Not a F35 vs Wright Brothers matchup.

    If you were offended in any way, go suck a sword.

    Also please don't overbuff axes I want cheap scrolls.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Creative Creative x 1
  11. OP
    OP
    Badminwei
    Offline

    Badminwei Mushmom

    51
    3
    60
    Jun 9, 2017
    Male
    5:33 AM
    MrBlueBlack
    Hero
    200
    Just wanna bring to your attention on the thread made previously by bluelightbluelight [skills and weapon balance (blunt, axe, staff)] just 4 months back..

    Some suggestions like increasing weapon mastery/increasing tier speed only for end game weapons/adjusting multiplier for 1h vs 2h were rightfully brought out as well.

    maybe this would spur on (and stress the need for) some positive changes in the future?
     
  12. Skuire
    Offline

    Skuire Nightshadow

    636
    1,094
    380
    Aug 16, 2017
    3:33 PM
    Skucci
    Shadower
    [​IMG] Axe bump. Really curious to see staff/balance team input on making axes great again. [​IMG]
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  13. bluetapeboy
    Offline

    bluetapeboy Red Snail

    7
    1
    16
    Oct 15, 2018
    Male
    5:33 PM
    WillardDog
    Fighter
    32
    What if they went the opposite way

    make axes faster than swords on average, but keep the inferior formula, and decrease attack

    I really just want dual-wield axes :(
     
  14. Daydreamer
    Offline

    Daydreamer Headless Horseman

    717
    243
    376
    Jul 8, 2017
    Male
    2:33 PM
    I/L Arch Mage
    I would prefer if axes were slower than swords, but had higher attack. Kind of like blunt weapons, which also could use a slight buff.
     
  15. Lulinya
    Offline

    Lulinya Selkie Jr.

    221
    13
    205
    Aug 25, 2018
    Male
    4:33 AM
    Lulynia
    Beginner, F/P Mage
    Yea make axes viable, I like sexa
     
  16. OP
    OP
    Badminwei
    Offline

    Badminwei Mushmom

    51
    3
    60
    Jun 9, 2017
    Male
    5:33 AM
    MrBlueBlack
    Hero
    200
    Bumping this thread again <3 especially with the influx of players this season! Share what you think!
     
  17. bluetapeboy
    Offline

    bluetapeboy Red Snail

    7
    1
    16
    Oct 15, 2018
    Male
    5:33 PM
    WillardDog
    Fighter
    32
    At the end of the day, even if you made axes have the exact same speed/attack as swords if not better, they are still grossly inferior due to the brandish formula.

    Brandish is fixed to do 1 swing and 1 stab animation, meaning that unless you address the multiplier, even if you make axes significantly stronger attack wise they would still deal less damage.

    Straight from Plenty's Hero Guide on Royal's forums:

    General Formula:
    • MAX = (Primary Stat + Secondary Stat) * Weapon Attack / 100
    • MIN = (Primary Stat * 0.9 * Skill Mastery + Secondary Stat) * Weapon Attack / 100
    One Handed Sword
    • Primary: STR * 4.0
    • Secondary: DEX
    One Handed Axe (Swinging)
    • Primary: STR * 4.4
    • Secondary: DEX
    One Handed Axe (Stabbing)
    • Primary: STR * 3.2
    • Secondary: DEX
    Two Handed Sword
    • Primary: STR * 4.6
    • Secondary: DEX
    Two Handed Axe (Swinging)
    • Primary: STR * 4.8
    • Secondary: DEX
    Two Handed Axe (Stabbing)
    • Primary: STR * 3.4
    • Secondary: DEX
    "Brandish has a forced stab and slash damage multiplier. Both one and two handed axes have different Str multipliers when stabbing or slashing whereas one and two handed swords are stable at 4x an 4.6x Str multiplier respectively. Because of this, axes deal an average of 7.6x Str multiplier per Brandish for a one handed axe and 8.2 Str multiplier per Brandish for a two handed axe. Swords, on the other hand, deal a consistent 8x and 9.2x Str multiplier per Brandish for one and two handed swords respectively. Count in the lack of decent Axe weapon and you've got yourself an underwhelming investment in axes."
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Shinwoo Ahn
    Offline

    Shinwoo Ahn Snail

    1
    0
    15
    May 5, 2019
    Male
    2:33 PM
    Abyo
    Brawler
    30
    Hi, I just started MapleLegends and I wanted to create an Axe Hero. Even though the weapon itself is so appealing, all these evidences against the weapon, in terms of damage, makes me sad. I also would really like to see axes get a buff, so I can enjoy my character in both performance and aesthetics. Please and thank you.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  19. merky
    Offline

    merky Mr. Anchor

    257
    153
    256
    Apr 13, 2016
    Male
    5:33 AM
    Crusader
    Axes are really, really weaker than swords unfortunately, and it's a terrible shame because of how beautiful some of the axes are. I would love to see axes becoming viable (and hopefully even competitive) as a weapon of choice for future Heroes. Likewise for 2-handed blunt weapons too.

    How does a hybrid axe and sword hero work? I'm really curious about the SP build.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Nicholas
    Offline

    Nicholas Mixed Golem

    163
    89
    173
    Jun 9, 2016
    Male
    London
    2:33 PM
    DragonNich
    Dark Knight, Bishop
    168
    Summer
    I was talking to one of the GMs a while ago, and I don't think those formulas above are correct (unless they're directly from the source code), as the GM I was talking to claimed that axe actually had advantage on stab (which is clearly shouldn't be the case). In terms of making axe a playable style, I would suggest that it be given advantage on swings and slightly buffed so that 2-handed axe heros will be better at grinding (i.e killing monsters in fewer hits), but still kept as less efficient as bossers than sword heros due to the speed-disadvantage (end-game axes are slow).
     

Share This Page