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Make the Challenges System level-gated (level ≥100) instead of job-advancement-gated

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by deer, Oct 10, 2022.

  1. Hanger
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    I agree insofar as if a Beginner wants to join in on the archetypal endgame bosses like zak ht pb, it doesn't matter whether they're there or not. No Beginner would ever say that their inclusion is valuable there. But you're missing what Beginners actually care to engage in in their endgames. And it's broader than you'd think. As a community, the oddjob community has done Ravana, Papulatus, All Beginner PPQ/Latanica/Leviathan. I've soloed Geist Rog, Headless Horseman, Every PQ boss, etc etc as a Beginner. This is the content we're talking about. We're not talking about Zak, or HT. There's only a handful of Beginners, and only two of us who didn't leech that can even have BARELY enough HP from washing to even enter those zones.

    Harking on about bloodwashing being more viable is a moot point. We don't care about our DPS as far as big bosses go. We DO care about it against certain bosses that our DPS DOES impact. Normal jobs would typically wipe out these bosses in seconds or minutes, but that's not the point is it? The point is that us not bloodwashing still matters.

    You speak like all Beginners do is leech off normal job characters. I suppose it's a fair criticism looking at the ML rankings page. But it's an incomplete view and very dismissive. Because those in the oddjobs community actually care about running bosses or content that doesn't rely on normies.
     
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  2. Hanger
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    Hanger Orange Mushroom

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    I suppose I'd have to disagree. I viewed the challenge system as a viable alternative to HP washing. HP washing is by far the least fun mechanic the game could have. If you could get that HP another way, and have it be usable in endgame, that's enough. Just because the system won't benefit whales with accounts and accounts of millions of millions of NX, doesn't mean that whales would really want to wash every character they have with millions and millions of NX. This isn't a system that exclusively benefits new players. I've been playing long enough and have washed enough to know that when the system comes out, I'm never washing again (unless it's a mage probably).

    And to your point, you're right, anyone who has planned for high washing goals has already done so or is well underway. But it would be a needlessly confusing system that only benefits those that are 3rd job +. The point was that that particular requirement is just bizarre.
     
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  3. lv1crook
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    lv1crook Capt. Latanica

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    Trying to keep a balanced perspective, I think this is a fair suggestion. There’s been so much text in this thread that I think I will just cover the main thesis:

    “This restriction is not only completely unnecessary, but is actively harmful, and often totally excludes those who need the Challenges System the most.”

    Is it unnecessary? I would say probably yeah. We don’t have all of the details of what kinds of quests they have in mind, so it could be possible they will have to go back to the drawing board on that front if they had some custom quest requirements. Or it could just be similar to 4th job quests, where anyone could do them. If it’s anything like the silver mane quest, then it is unnecessary to restrict the challenge system from these players.

    Is it actively harmful? I would say yes. If this challenge system is implemented, it basically solves HP washing for good on this server. But beginners and other odds will still have no solution, and if intervention isn’t made at this point it will likely remain this way forever. The reason why this system is being considered in the first place is that HP washing sucks and is a terrible mechanic. Why force these players to continue to engage with that?

    Do beginners and oddjobs need the system the most? I would say yes and no. Yes, beginners and most perma-firsts literally cannot survive high level bosses without it, but at the same time the number of players I’ve seen actually reach this point is very small. Could you call their need greater when it’s so much fewer people? You could argue part of the reason why there is so few is because there isn’t much hope beyond level 100 due to the necessity of HP wash. And in fact, I have heard that sentiment mentioned many times in discord conversations.

    Overall, since this is going to be such a big change for the server, it would be a tremendous loss if beginners and odds were excluded because of a technicality. If it’s because the plan in mind is just not feasible for them, that’s fair too. But. Considering this change is in alpha phase, it’s not too late to change that either. There are plenty of potential challenges that anyone could complete that would still be engaging.

    A lot of the replies in the comments seem less interesting to respond to, the same old beginners shouldn’t be included because they are beginners with a couple of disingenuous/troll posts sprinkled in (at least on the first page). So I don’t think I will.
     
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  4. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Skelosaurus

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    Hmm that's fair. I can understand the desire to skip the HP washing process for a lot of players, but that being said, I've also been recommending pretty much everyone I know that if you have the ability to wash, you should. In the context of ranged characters, 12.4k HP at 200 is... passable, but honestly pitiful, and the mage HP is honestly pathetic. While from a "bare minimum" POV it's considered acceptable, I would never want to play a character with such little HP.

    Anyways, this digresses from my original response to this thread. Getting back to the original topic, I did originally agree with you in that locking the challenges behind 3rd job shouldn't be a thing. I supported this change for the same reasons as you, in that it was a bizarre and needlessly confusing system, and there was little harm in inclusivity if executed well. I have no issues supporting this change for those reasons, the only reason I posted originally was because I had issues with deer saying it was unfair that new content was added that characters created originally did not have the requisite knowledge to plan around it and choose to opt in / opt out. I think this is a horrible mindset to have when looking to tune new content, for the reasons I already mentioned.

    Having changes being made that benefit players unequally is just something that happens in an ever evolving game where players have customized their playstyles. This is not something that can or should be avoided, it is merely an inevitability. When Aufheben was released, and my Bishop that I created over a year ago did not have enough HP to do anything other than cowering in the corner spamming Magic Guard, I didn't throw a fit because I did not have the opportunity to "voluntarily choose not to do it" as deer put it. This is merely something that happens when changes and additions are added to the game. No player will ever have perfect information. Trying to fight against every change because it just happens to not benefit you specifically as much as it benefits other players is crab mentality, and comes across as entitled, which is why I think iPippy received so much support on his original reply.

    Again, to reiterate, I, iPippy, and most other players I would assume support the change to including non-3rd+ jobs to the challenge system. But it's important to analyze and criticize the reasons we want such changes made.
     
  5. Hanger
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    I am formulating this reply to you and iPippy. I've had a good think about what you have said, and I have some opinions. I won't do an exhaustive critique, but moreso target the spirit of your posts. I'll break it down by first summing up what I think Deer says and means by what she writes. Then I'll have a look at the way you guys phrase things which makes things a little incendiary. I'll start off by saying that I understand the sentiments you guys put forward, but I think you guys are just straight up missing the entire picture, and it comes off as if you guys just have this really odd bias towards alternative styles of play for whatever reason, and it's just weird to me.

    So to begin with, Deer primarily took the stance that the restriction was strange. As far as I understand, she thinks that keeping it simple and having it based off a level requirement is simpler and more effective. Whilst this inevitably entails an argument about inclusivity, I don't think the point is about inclusivity here. In her reply that you focused on, she made the point that as you said, things were not fair when you do not have prerequisite knowledge to plan around things that might be introduced later. But specifically she said as well that if there's anything that should be keeping oddjobs out of doing challenges, it should be that the challenges themselves are not possible to be completed by effort. And she's right in that the oddjob community would absolutely embrace this. Viclockers and Osslockers are completely comfortable that they will never have Tier 10 rings. None of them are complaining. Similarly, like yourself, you are not complaining about the idea that your Bishop will never be able to Auf. You understand that it can't, and that's fine. The oddjob community readily understands, accepts, and embraces these limitations. So what's going wrong here with the disagreements? Well, there's obviously Deer's clinical and exhaustive writing style, as if everything is a scientific paper or a peer-reviewed philosophical argument. This is not her being militant, this is not her being elitist or entitled, this is her being her. If that sounds like I'm reaching, you can take a LONG look at oddjobs.codeberg.page and her github and see for yourself how deep she delves into defining, sorting, organising, creating, defining, archiving, promoting, assisting, or any of the -ing's you can think of, Oddjobs and Maplestory as a whole. Tone aside, we have to look at the tone iPippy put forward and the puzzling amount of support that comment got, and both of your attitudes treating the oddjob community as "entitled" and "whiny".

    Taking a look at what iPippy writes, and ignoring for the most part what Deer replied to them, and ignoring that we all agree the restriction is nonsensical in some way, they speak of the "oddjob manifesto" and its "spirit of adversity" as if this is a well defined thing. This is projection. Let's get it straight. Oddjobs aren't a monolith. It's a lot grayer and fuzzier than we think. In fact on this server, it's bloody odd for someone NOT to leech their character all the way to bossing level, and it's bloody odd for someone NOT to go pureINT, and it's bloody odd for someone NOT to wash. Speaking about these suboptimal ways of playing with disdain and an air of elitism as if we should be grateful if we might be seen as respectable in iPippy's eyes is a bloody awful take. iPippy suggests that oddjobs are moving away from the spirit of oddjobs, unironically saying that to the community who has been playing oddjobs for years, the community who constantly restricts themselves harder and harder just to see what happens. They insinuate that the oddjob community lacks a baseline of integrity as they move goalposts and guilt trip players and devs to sympathise with them, to bend over backwards, kowtow, and kiss the feet of this small, niche group of players. I can understand the sentiment here, but I think it's wrong. We're making a suggestion that we think might be healthy for the state of the game. And one that we think might be doable. I'll touch on this in a bit. And lastly, iPippy points to this behaviour and says "look at you, you're all entitled", over a suggestion regarding an enormous change to the game mechanics that will affect the balance of the game.

    And focusing on your reply Blen, I agree! I don't think that thinking about it as unfair is a healthy way to see changes to the game that you don't foresee not being available to you. But I don't think this was in the spirit of Deer's reply, nor was it how we should be taking her reply. But the idea that asking for a system that effectively replaces washing, which unlocks more types of content for everyone, to be available to a niche community is entitled, is also an awful take.

    You see, I think the problem is this. If Aufheben was released, and the understanding of it was that it was an endgame boss, and then I asked you as a dev to mAkE iT EaSiEr sO oDjboS cAn aLsO aUf, THAT might constitute entitlement. It's such a bizarre take that makes absolutely no sense that if it were done, it would be seen as pandering to a community that shouldn't be able to do that. Notice how no oddjob person really commented about how they really wanted to do endgame bosses. I mean I know Deer mentioned Zak, Scarga, HT in their post, but I don't think that that's nearly possible unless you had the strongest oddjobs come together like Dagger Warriors, DEXWarriors, Magelets, and so on, doing a 3h run. That's a technicality with the oddjob system. It's not realistic. That's not realistically what we're asking for. Instead, we're looking at a fresh new system being introduced, as a genuine alternative to hp washing, and seeing the potential for unlocking all the content we would ALREADY BE DOING had we hp washed, only now we take away the toxic part of our runs. I don't see any world where this is a bad thing. I understand you have the perspective of never playing a character that's not washed hard. I get that. But remember, Nimbus, Chroma, GangGang, we're filled with whales and sweatlords and minmaxers. Of course you wouldn't! The oddjob community on the other hand...we want to do rather trivial things to you, like Rav, Pap, Lat, and so on. We don't need years of washing to accomplish that. But we do need to wash, and washing greatly impacts a majority of the oddjobs that want to play, to the point where a lot of the things you might do like PQing would feel like leeching. So if we can do away with washing entirely and focus on doing the oddjob run itself, from building the character, to theory crafting it, to optimising it, to actually bloody playing it, that's nothing but a good thing. So when a system like this comes along, that CAN be designed well, it's not a moral quandary about losing the spirit of playing an oddjob, nor is it about asking the devs or other players to support the cause of oddjobs and pander to us specifically just because "we feew mawginawised boohoo poowr us..", and it's not about the fact that we want EVERYTHING in the game to be available to us. We just think that with certain systems and certain additions to the game that make sense to be applied universally, when it isn't applied universally, it seems wonky. It seems doable. And that's where I think the idea of fairness in Deer's eyes comes in. When speaking normatively about something, should a system be this way? or should it be another way? I believe you could make judgements about fairness of application.

    Deer spoke about how she feels a sentiment of entitlement whenever she writes posts like this, but screw that, I don't. I don't see this as entitlement whatsoever. This just makes sense to me. We're not fighting against every change like you suggest. We're not moving goalposts or changing only what I want to change like iPippy suggests. It's just that there's a new system. It seems ridiculous in principle that it's not available to any and everyone. And we're making a suggestion to make it available. What in the world is so controversial about that that someone has to write a character assassination about all oddjob players and be reductive about the community, simplifying them as "needy", "whiny", "entitled", and so on and so forth? That's why I've been so ready to reply to anything coming up on this thread. It just seems like it's filled with normies who don't understand how oddjobs work giving their two misguided cents about a topic that doesn't concern them. If oddjobs get extra HP, who in the world cares? You're not playing an oddjob. You're not partying with an oddjob to do HT or PB with. It's important to discuss and analyse the reasons for why we want certain changes made. This doesn't feel like that. This feels like an attack without a cause. It just feels like bias and irritation spilling over.

    So if you asked me why we think these changes might be good or why inclusivity might be good, it's because it makes sense. I don't think that's entitlement. I think that's logical.
     
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  6. Hanger
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    Thank you MapleLegends staff and fellow Legends Maplers for allowing us oddjobs to touch this wonderful game called MapleLegends the Game, The Legends of Maplestory : pray_emoji :
     
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  7. lv1crook
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    Goat post redz
     
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  8. Dimez
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  9. akashsky
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    The amount of projection from these odd jobbers is wild.
     
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  10. CaptainNemo
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    CaptainNemo Selkie Jr.

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    The amount of you kids coming to hype-man for each other is a little cringe when you can't add to the conversation in any capacity, nor answer Hanger's questions. But you do you boo.
     
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  11. mjk
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    mjk Master Chronos

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    agreed :kiss:

    Edit: for the record, I don't think the developer effort is worth it for the change proposed in this thread
     
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  12. Dimez
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    Dimez Stone Golem

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    Is this a real discussion
     
  13. CaptainNemo
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    CaptainNemo Selkie Jr.

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    Still added nothing, but decided to have chimp brain anyways. :kiss:

    Back on track: The discussion at it's core: Why is the challenge system Level and Job locked, and is there a way to have it only level locked without being a problem.
    Topic 1 - Why is it job locked
    Seems to be the case because of certain jobs could abuse part of the HP gain features? However I'm not entirely sure that's actually the case based on how the HP table and original washing go against each other, and you can only do one or the other. (In the original thread it states once you opt in to the standardized HP/MP table you could no longer add manual HP/MP, which should subvert most nefarious usage)
    Topic 2 - Is there a way to remove the job lock without being a problem
    From what the staff said earlier in the thread, adding additional jobs would increase the checks required, so complicated backend work, but is a feasible action.

    The amount of hostility garnered from this thread is weird, seems targeted for personal reasons that lay outside the context of this discussion, and isn't constructive in the slightest.
     
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  14. akashsky
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    Who is actually being hostile here?
     
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  15. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    While we do also want to avoid any potential abuse that is not the main reason. Challenges are custom made for each respective job, odd-jobbers or beginners simply have no way of completing them. Unless we end up creating custom challenges for each odd-job class and beginner out there that will have to be extremely bland in order for them to be able to do these.

    We're not against inclusion, we're just not sure yet how to properly include people that play the game in restrictive ways.
     
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  16. Hanger
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    I think the point Deer and I were talking about is that if oddjobbers and beginners simply have no way of completing them, the idea would be that we would embrace that. That's fine if it's available but we can't get it because it's too hard or we don't have a prerequisite skill to complete it. It's a different thing when the requirement at hand is straight up "anyone above 3rd or 4th job". Are you saying that the challenges would be different for a 3rd job mage as opposed to a 4th job mage? If the detail is that granular, I'd find the way the system is built quite strange considering the norm is just 4th job. And if the norm is just straight up 4th job, there's no distinction on the challenges no matter what job they're at. If the challenges will be that you "Use meteor to kill Zakum" or something, I suppose it's understandable but questionable at best. I don't quite know what you could do to give SPECIFICALLY 4th job requirements on the challenges.

    Now on the note of Beginners being a completely separate class to give challenges to, I don't see why you couldn't copy paste another challenge from say, a warrior or something. Of course, this only matters if these challenges were locked behind specific skills the jobs had to use. And if Beginners themselves take too much dev time to build an entirely new challenge system around, I suppose that's fair. But if the challenges are going to be rudimentary tasks like "Kill 100 Electrophants", I don't exactly know how the system works or what goes on behind the curtains that the devs do, but would it not be possible to just copy paste that for a beginner somewhere? If it's way more complicated than that, then I have nothing to say. If it is the case that challenges will be designed to utilise say, a Bishop's Doom Skill specifically, and it would take too much time to design a whole new system for a Beginner specifically, I'll have nothing to say either. I don't even have much of a problem if a system designed to incorporate the skills of a class just simply can't include a Beginner. Then I think you could say, ahh well a Beginner has nothing that the Challenge system can actually offer it in terms of content. And choosing a Beginner excludes one directly from this content as a default. I don't think I'd really have a problem with it. Sucks for the ginner but it can be accepted.

    But if it is the case that the challenges are just plainly too hard to complete for most Beginners, like Kill 1x Bigfoot, that's fine. We would embrace that. But if the restriction is something as arbitrary as "Needs to be 3rd job +", it just begs the question, why exactly and what about being 3rd job + and not Lv100+ is specifically the point? I don't mean this facetiously, it's a genuine question. Because if the restriction was simply Lv100+, I don't think you'd need to design anything specific for whatever classification of oddjob someone could come up with. You could just have the system, the oddjob might have one or two challenges they could complete at 1st or 2nd job because you might have a quest that needs teleport or something, and they can still get some benefits before they realise that they need higher tier skills; OR at worst case none of them, and say "Ahh, well guess I can't then". The point was, 3rd Job + seems like a really strange restriction and Lv100+ seems more clearcut, and NOT "waaaaah design special challenges for my oddjobs please". No one was asking for that.
     
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  17. Hanger
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    Hanger Orange Mushroom

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    Literally both of you. We're screaming at each other and it's not productive. At least Nemo bothered to say something and engage in the critical discussion around how the system might be tweaked.
     
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  18. Dimez
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    i want Chobanis thoughts on this thread!, hes the best and highest level beginner in the game
     
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  19. wolf666
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    wolf666 Master Chronos

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    Keep Beginners and Odd-jobs out of the system entirely.
     
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  20. Taima
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    I think it is sad to see normally nice people post aggressively and keep piling it on past the point of exhaustion. The actual naysayers have made their points, the supporters still want the HP wash alternative system, and the GMs have spoken. As it stands, this suggestion is either "not possible to add" currently for 0-2nd job due to yet unrevealed requirements for the challenges, or should be left dormant along with many other threads in the suggestion abyss, maybe to be revisited or remade if someone wants to after we know what the heck a HP challenge even is.

    I think this one bit of information clears up the initial confusion. Seems clear enough from the original post that deer did not see specifically jobbed challenges coming. The HP challenges post does not mention it, nor does it say anything about a 3rd-4th job requirement. Understandable, nobody expects patch notes to cover every minute detail, and anyway it's assumed any level 100+ characters are 3rd job+ too. Other posters at the time were recommending things like jump quests, exploration, item collection, and other long-term simple or non-combat challenges that any job could do; we still have no clue what these challenge things are, and some challenges maybe are not combat related still. At the time, the only information on this was a post in the HP Challenges alpha thread about how adding Beginners could be possible, if they were locked out of job advancing:

    One could take that as an invitation for a suggestion, and even feel the need to push out that suggestion early since this was seen as a new system early in development. Thus leading to the exhaustive take on job restrictions, job locks, and possible HP related exploits these locks attempt to avoid. Maybe some took issue with the "Q: I don’t care." section? Well, the GMs never said "I don't care, and I know your restrictions better than you, now wash away your shame with an AP reset." They were actually polite, and I don't expect any one staff member to hold all the information, all the time, and disseminate that info in just the right way to avoid every unforeseen misunderstanding.

    Some of the posts now are just kind of mean and not at all constructive. Even my post here is no longer constructive, just a dissection I guess. If your take now is "exclude every Oddjob" you really have no idea or are purposely throwing more trash on to an already stinking dump. Most Oddjobs will be able to do the challenges just fine. An all-DEX Dark Knight, a 4th job Gish, an all-STR Hermit, these characters will be able to access and probably clear the challenges. An equally strong or stronger permanent Thief can't access them. Only a few oddjobs are first and second job, and most 2nd job locks are actually not odd but Victoria-locked people that aren't going to be able to do challenges at all. So saying "Keep Beginners and Odd-jobs out of the system entirely." at this point comes off more as a reactionary response that may draw posters that are still fired up back into the argument. A perfect feedback loop that makes the worst in everyone come out. confusedmush
     
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