Melee vs Ranged.

The more factors you start trying to account for, the harder it is to even say there is a “gap”. Pink Bean is an easy way to compare classes at a level that all players can agree is, without question, “endgame”.

How do you account for the fact that Shadowers can level at an incredible rate starting level 122 at 7f, or the fact that they have by far the lowest pot costs in the game? How do you adjust for the fact that Shadowers have the potential for the fastest 3rd job in the game for attacker classes? Are these enough benefits to outweigh their (slightly) lower DPM in specific content? Shadower should outperform Archer in content like Zakum and Verga; is there even a “gap” if we start accounting for things like this?

 

Shads got their buffs in the nate changes and I think they're in a decent spot outside of HT (arm lock/anti-cleave/five-head meta is stupid and should have been addressed long ago). They're just probably under represented right now because gearing shads is an unpopular route and tends to cost more than other classes. IMO, more needs to be done to allow for more diverse 6-man HT comps as I feel like that is a cornerstone to class balance discussions.

The main problem I see with warriors is that they provide next to nothing but dps and they tend to do it worse than most other classes. They don't tank, pin, or aggro in PB. They don't even debuff or protect their party like they would in any other game, so their class identity is pretty fucked. At the moment, their only advantage is that they can cleave decently and they're easily washed/entry-level attacker classes, but with challenge system implementation, they'll be with left with basically nothing and relegated to being scarga/MoN sellers.

We could potentially see a DK resurgence solely out of a need for unwashed/challenge HP comps, but they're still bottom tier all around. I'm guessing DKs are first in line for dpm/meta relevant buffs as HB seems to be a central piece to the challenge HP rework, but I'd also like to see their effort-to-reward ratio for DPM be adjusted significantly. We've seen that with the last few warrior changes (panic rework, zerking changes), and I'm certain staff is aware of the potential problem of warrior buffs propelling a future footpedal multi-attacker meta.

IMO, changes I'd want implemented for melee classes are:

• Heroes should have their panic range increased and normalized so they don't change based on swing/stab.
• DKs need their hyperzerk damage increased significantly and should have their crusher horizontal range adjusted slightly to match their spear/long range play style.
• Buccs should have their 'ranged' attack range be nerfed to be more melee-adjacent - reducing their dpm efficiency slightly.
• Shad's nate should be changed so skillful dash dancing is incentivized (no footpedal nating).
• Paladins are fine as they are and are currently my pick for best first class.

 

You can’t 7f on an Archer at 122 though.

If the only metric you want to use is effectiveness in combat and disregard things like meso efficiency and ability to farm exp, then it’s still difficult to claim the existence of a significant gap between Shads and other classes. What fights are Shads even back of the pack? CWKPQ, D2? Meanwhile they can perform at the same level or better than ranged in Zak, Verga, Nib, CB, Auf, Toad, BGA, and JC, and are pretty much required for 10-12 man HT.

Where exactly is the large dpm gap for Shads? Is it just because of CWKPQ?

 

Actually we do have a good amount of hard evidence if you draw from the DPM compilation thread as well as personal experience. My ~30b funded BM is consistently outperformed on a lot of the content I listed above by melee classes with less than half of that funding level, notably bosses with adds (Core Blaze, Zak, JC), bosses with cleave opportunities (the same bosses as well as HT, Auf), bosses with extremely high Wdef (Samurai, Toad, BGA) and bosses with spammy KB that requires constant repositioning (Toad, Samurai, PB body, Auf, etc). Hell I've even been whited at Verga by a Paladin with 30 less levels and less than 3b in funding. And before I get called out for it being a skill issue I've posted what I believe to be the fourth highest BM HT DPM45 in the server; it's not a skill issue, ranged just doesn't execute to their dummy DPM levels as well as melee does on a lot of fights. Sure I can white people with ease on dummy fights like Nameless, but there's plenty of other fights where the opposite is true.

People are under the perception that ranged is always better because they're ignorant and have never played a ranged attacker (and because NLs are fucking broken). Ranged really only shines in specific fights (notably PB, which again, is considered one of the most important fights in the game, and even then it's once again because NLs are broken)

 

Why are combo orbs dispelable tho? :/ (sad hero noises)

 

After seeing spencil2 dpm test with panic + power strike (with fa) maybe a rework in fa speed goes nice to hero single target?

 

Honestly yeah would be a good QoL change to make them undispellable. Would make Heroes actually good in Auf too

 

I've wanted a Final Attack rework for awhile now, especially for Heroes as it could potentially play into combo orb regeneration and give some interesting niche roles with more frequent Panic and pinning capabilities. It would be pretty cool to see FA somehow work with 4th job skills as a pseudo crit - it'd help paladins break their 200k/attack ceiling too.

FA on hurricane would be pretty nutty as well, and I believe some other servers implemented something similar for their version of Bowmasters.

 

so good to see skar throwing good ideas instead of memeing 100% of the time

 

skar redemption era

milet vs zoom changes a man

 

For this view point i like to see dpm datas...

 

Gurk’s Shad has me beat on PB, Toad, and Auf and puts out similar damage on CB although it’s worth noting that BM requires support from cleave in CB whereas a Shad does not. From what I can tell BM wins out in HT (at least on the higher end, there’s a lack of BMs that can consistently break 7m for whatever reason). I don’t have hard numbers for JC but I’d imagine Shad wins out there as well on average although BM can technically do more effective dpm with extremely lucky Mortal Blow procs?

BM should win out on dummy fights and anti-melee fights like Nameless and Dunas 2 and most area bosses.

 

Those BM posts are before the Wdef changes and are no longer valid. I would be impressed if a 180 BM could even pull 5m dpm on Toad atm.

MM outperforms BM in CB and Auf pretty handedly.

 

A Gurk strength BM should be pulling around 6m dpm in Toad (wdef is about a 50% damage reduction for BMs). MM should win out due to Snipe ignoring Wdef.

CB BM will be pulling more than Shad but not significantly more, and depends heavily on RNG and cleave support so numbers will be highly variable.

Auf Shad is already performing at the same level as MM if you account for variance. Due to Auf’s DR being one of the most unforgiving in the game BM damage depends heavily on server ping, and many BMs are just not allowed to cane when DR is up (1 min timer)