The HP Buff Item in depth

I really like the idea!
Plus old washers still get more hp long term anyway, so perhaps they wont be as against it.

Take my support /o/

 

This is exactly what I would want in a solution for HP washing.

Everyone will be able to get enough HP to do all the bosses without having to add stats to INT, but there is also a cap on how much hp you can get. With a cap that should be different for each class.
It will still cost a lot of NX to do it though so it won't be easy to get super high hp super quickly/easy.
This way everyone can do all the bosses and the people who want to can put in more effort do get even higher HP.

100% support!

 

i legit quit because of the anxiety hp wash gave me lol
ruined the fun of nostalgia playing for me

 

oh wow! yes please!! Yes for HP-Buffer vote-cash item please!

This will help with late HP gains, and make it so that people wont have to weaken their primary stats just for HP!

Also, this will still require using the same amount of vote cash, but bypass all the weird stat reallocations for the same amount of HP gains similar to using a normal AP reset!

 

Super creative idea!! Would definitely redirect all of my vote cash into this since I'm just goofing off with my outfits and buying 100 tele rocks x) I definitely messed up my washing on my beginner as well, I think I'm around 1000 hp or more lower than anyone around my level which causes me to not be able to participate in things.

However.. Maybe I'm just being a sourpuss, but I think this would throw the economy into turmoil. INT equips would tank in price which would cause people who have invested millions(billions??) of mesos into INT gear to lose all of the inherent value in their equips. This would cause a lot of the "richest" players in the game to lose the capital that they had, which I imagine would be really upsetting.

Personally, I hope that they experiment with making AP resets more accessible without NX first. I feel a lot of the frustration is tied to how long it takes to build up your voting NX.

 

If something like this is implemented I think the NX cost should be higher than AP resets. With regular HP washing there’s a downside of needing MP whereas this method would simply increase HP with no downside.

 

I like the idea of off-loading washing to later levels.

I hate the fact that new players have to decide whether or not they want to go hard (wash) or play casually (not wash) from day 1. Washing also means you don't actually get to play the game levels 1-150 with any serious HP goal. There won't be complaints from already-washed players as long as the work for washing is off-loaded to later.

Making AP resets more accessible (cheaper, events, etc.) is an easy solution, but it's not a good solution. Washing still has all of the same problems AND you're de-valuing work done by existing players. It's the worst of both worlds. It only helps sweaty players like me - people that are going to wash anyway.

The dilemma with giving everyone (washed and non-washed players) access to the same bonus HP is that to give non-washed players enough HP to comfortably participate in endgame bosses, you are giving washed players way too much HP. For there to be a meaningful way to give unwashed players a *sufficient* (not barely playable) amount of HP, you have to present players with two options: either wash and get HP with less work, OR don't wash and get the same HP later with more work.

I think it would be good to have the HP-buffs give diminishing returns based both on your current HP (preventing HP inflation from already-washed players) as well as the number of times you've turned in these HP-buffs (rewarding washing early). I think it would be also fair to require some work in addition to simply voting for these HP-buffs.

 

You say not overpowered but imo this is very strong if there’s no downside on it. This will add 5k HP to every attacker with no cost which pretty much deletes the need for HB early-mid tier bossing and lessens the benefit warriors have with high HP pools. I’d rather a daily quest than this so people at least put in some effort of work.

 

Can we have a separate currency for this that comes with monster drops? Similar to Christmas presents so it doesn't take up space, then trade it in. This would require you to actually farm/play the game instead of just waiting and voting. I really like the idea though.

 

I think this is a little misleading though; INT equips are exponentially more expensive. I bought a 19 STR bathrobe for 16m, but a 19int INT bathrobe is worth 110m. That's quite a difference.
Something that might be analogous (although not perfectly) is if there was a change implemented that made white scrolls not needed to perfect scroll an item. Yes, more players could get "perfect" items, but anyone who was using white scrolls as capital would lose a lot of their net worth and it would shift the economy quite a bit. Of course people "want" to not spend 160m on a white scroll.. but it's also a way people make money.

I think the hesitation I have with this HP-buffer item is that it circumvents the struggle that past people who HP washed went through (which is a pro in my eyes), BUT it also devalues their net worth if they have invested a lot of money into int equips.

I'm not saying that I have the answer or that your answer is wrong, I'm just saying that the problem is more complicated than just the act of HP-washing. INT equips are a huge part of the economy in this server and the HP buffer item would directly devalue the need for them, which would impact a lot of long-term players who invested in INT equips. I think that a true end-to-end "solution" for HP washing as a whole is going to need to address the economy aspect as well. i don't envy anyone who is involved in making the actual decision x)

 

Oh, I think we're misunderstanding each other a bit -- or maybe not, I truthfully got a little lost in your reply so feel free to clarify if I'm misunderstanding. When I say net worth, I mean the amount of money all of their items and mesos add up to. So if I have 20m in mesos and a 19int bathrobe on my character, my net worth is 130m. Let's say my int bathrobe decreased in price to match str bathrobes, my net worth would decrease 94m and I would only "have" 36m. So yes, as a person who washed, I would be upset if my net worth decreased by almost 100m (and that's only looking at 1 equip).

I think we are all severely underestimating how tied HP-washing is to ML's economy. People say int equips will still be expensive because of selling leech, but a lot of people who buy leech are HP washing. Less need for leech means it will be harder to make money by selling leech, which will upset all of the people who made characters specifically to make money by selling leech.

Again, not saying I have the answer, I'm saying that the actual mechanic of HP-washing is only the tip of the iceberg. Changing how HP-washing works is an incredibly risky scenario and I would hope that a solution would take into account the gigantic impact it will have on the economy, which is where I think this solution is lacking.

 

I agree.

i guess this is like the analogy of people who pre-order games pay a very high priced unpatched game with glitches, but the new players get to pay less for the whole package deal without glitches.

So... people who have int equips are playing even with issues in the market + inflated 100s of millions of mesos just to buy in to good washing equips.

Then the old players say, "no," to the patches because they are dominating the market, by reaping off of the new-to-washing player base.

Bishop/mages selling leech = tons of mesos = buy/scroll Good INT equips that costs 100s millions mesos = Washing for more HP = boss raids = more mesos.

So everyone who wants to play the FULL version of the game (all bosses included) has to some how buy/scroll good INT equips to get enough HP.

If someone mess up their Washing... then what? They get what they deserve? LOL

 

So I like the idea but probably at a lower rate of HP gain. There should still be some time invested in something and this does away with the current meta of having to play Mage/Bishop for 6+months before starting an attacker. This would also allow new players to level with a secondary stat, assuming they aren't funded enough to afford Maple weapons, accuracy gear, etc. The downside would be in this devaluing INT gear/scrolls, pumping more mesos into the economy(no more mesos going towards INT gear/scrolls) and likely effecting the prices of other items/scrolls in the process.

I personally have 2m vote cash(and still voting) ready to wash an attacker and despite taking a long time to accumulate that much I would not mind at all doing away with traditional HP washing. I'm not looking forward to NOT being able to play the class for 140 levels while I leech it for maximum efficiency washing...

 

Really like the idea as it seems to solve a lot of problems, though I have my doubts it would ever get implemented.
A few suggestions would be the following:

Make it 5k nx so it's still technically a bit cheaper nx wise to gain via washing.
Give players a daily quest (resets on reset not 24h cycle) per account that gives them their second (or first if the chose to buy something else, e.g., resets for normal washing).
Instead of 15-20 hp per "buff", and different limits based on classes, do the same limit but base the hp gain off the hp gained from washing normally (class based).

Reasoning:
With a 5k limit instead of 3k, but the ability to gain via a daily quest as well, it would do the following:
A) give users the ability to mix washing and buffing.
B) give users the ability to buff and still save up some amount of nx over time for unexpected usages (pet equips, etc.), or other usages.
C) doesn't increase the minimum amount of time required to make the change for a new account, but would reduce the likelyhood of a player being able to day one of the items introduction hit the limit
D) Encourage players to play the game rather than just voting for a year. I get that, for people who work, this might hurt a bit, but if it's say a 10 minuite quest (e.g., kill 100 monsters in your level range) it's not exactly an unachievable commitment.
E) This would reduce the claims of hp gain (washing or buffing) being exclusively vote to win (which it currently is outside of events)

The buffing solution would really legitimize players who want to only lightly wash. My "lightly washed" mm with the t10 ring has a bit over 7k hp at 139. Sure, that's a good amount, and I could still put out damage without making too many sacrifices, but if I want to say, comfortably boss at HT (comfortably being defined as taking 2 hits before death), that's nowhere near enough. And being comfortable at say PB is essentially impossible. Sure, they're bosses, you're not supposed to be comfortable, whatever, that's a different argument.

The fact that the economy is exclusively tied to A) washing and B) endgame equips / scrolling them, is inherently exclusionary to new players anyway since, outside of lpq, kpq, and gacha, new players cannot generate money for themselves since so many int scrolls are late game exclusive (there's obviously ways around this to some extent).

Realistically, most players who are serious about washing will see this as either an easy boost, or something more expensive than washing (as far as gaining via nx), and will continue to wash. This just gives them the freedom to reduce the target / reduce the amount of base int, or start removing int earlier. This would also allow lvl 200s who didn't wash enough to potentially gain enough hp to participate in pb. Again, the biggest freedom is legitimizing lighter washing / equipment boost only washing.

 

Let me start off by saying two things...

1. I am all for removing some of the time investment or complexity about HP washing.
2. Radical changes to this space are like playing with fire for the whole server. Maybe it's for the better, but maybe it would destabilize the entire economy.

HP Washing, and therefore, voting, NX, leeching, and INT equips are incredibly tied to the long-term engagement and work that players do on this server. If everyone magically had more HP, for minimal work, major sectors of the game would cease to exist. Again, is this for the better? I'm not sure.

Sorry to use this as an example, but this is just one example where I believe folks are not seeing the bigger picture. No, INT equips would not maintain their value. You can see this easily between mage exclusive shields or robes vs. generic equips. There is a huge value disparity. In general, INT equips hold so much value due to HP washing. Otherwise, you could almost guarantee that they would drop down to prices more similar to other stat items.

INT equips would not retain value due to mages selling leech... who are the primary consumers who are buying leech? That's right, characters who are high INT, washing, and still need to level. Sure there are some painful levels, but the vast majority of players leeching (at certain level ranges) are characters with high INT.

Again, is this a great system? I think a lot of folks would argue "no" and I'd be inclined to agree.

However, the solution to gaining HP has to take into account so many more factors than just characters gaining HP. Whether we like it or not, washing has tied itself to almost every aspect of this server and therefore unwinding it needs an extreme amount of thought and consideration.

I do not envy the staff and other folks who are trying to solve it.

 

About the point on ML's leeching economy and Int gear price and how it will make alot of players upset.

I guess there are a few times where players have been burned by nerfs ( personally, si and taunt and I know a friend that made 2 AMs and 5-6 got nerfed right before he was able to start selling) but we still carry on with our lives, after alot of whining.

If this solves or makes hp washing easier, I'm all for it. If this makes this game less leechstory, I'm all for it. I believe staff has said before that they don't like the idea of leeching.

Yes, I'm a sweaty skeles leecher and do own quite alot of int gear, and I support demolishing the demand for leech and for Int gear to drop in price. ( Don't think it will drop THAT much anw)

 

Putting a level limit on when these items can be used can probably solve the early-mid tier bossing issues.
Putting it as a daily quest will probably put some good amount of work, coz having it cost the same as AP Reset may result in having too little effort to obtain HP.
The effort should be comparable to Monster Book Ring, where it takes a long time and dedication to obtain the amount of HP required.

Ideally when combined with monster book ring, pet scrolls and BFC, it should provide just enough HP to survive in PB