CWKPQ Balance Notes

Thing is Htpend will still sell since server consist of like 50% mages anyways that needs htpend, also htpend is also good for its 23int for washing. Just keep it as gms like as possible and keep it on 9-11att. 1-3att would just make it a dead pq after a few months..

 

Yes, just because the HTP has been the best, it doesn't always mean it will and must stay the best.

The worry with the unbuffed MoN is that it will make horntail less desirable. Horntail is and will still be desirable to do regardless of the horntail pendant becomes the 2nd best in the game. There is nothing wrong with a lower level pendent that provides more power compared to the horntail pendent.

Let us relax the assumption that the horntail has to be the strongest pendent in the game for all. If the unnerfed MoN gets released, how is the MoN overpowered? what is it overpowered compared to? Is it overpowered compared to itself or to people who don't have it? Why doesn't everyone just get the MoN? If everyone has a MoN, then what makes that wrong? How is it overpowered if everyone has access to it? Why shouldn't we use the MoN if its the best item for its equipment slot? We've established that it is the best pendent in the game. Other than horntail's htp drop, why do people run horntail? Horntail is not just about the horntail pendent. Like I said earlier, it also drops skillbooks, equipments, the horntail chair, gives a hefty amount of exp. Horntail pendent prices are already at a record low. Horntail itself is still a challenging boss. People, even at lv 200 can mess up and cause the whole run to fail. People need to do horntail for more than just sell horntail pendent services. The beliefs that horntail will become a less attractive boss is wrong. No skill books available, prices go up, more people do horntail again. Horntail is also a great meso earning strategy whereas cwkpq only has a few tradable items that don't yield much mesos. Frankly once (every person) people have a unnerfed MoN in their possession, they will resume horntail.

Let us reinstate the issue with nerfing the MoN to keep the HTP as best pendent in the game and remove bonus stage for a while. What does this ultimately do to the game? A nice cosmetic pendent you would likely use between lv 110 and whenever you aim for a HTP. Late game boss times won't decrease. Now let us reinstate bonus stage, where bossing related steroids will speed up the time of boss runs by a bit. Main items are untradeable and mages would probably not use the Swiss Cheese for bossing. Other items from bonus include a chair, some mastery books, some scrolls, and equipment. Now, how does that really affect the game? Not that much, maybe prices of some damage related potions will fluctuate (decrease). You may see more bishops selling petri leech now. Is the slimmest decrease in boss time because of gelt chocolates really able to entice more horntail battles? No!. The quicker the boss fight, the more desirable it is considering horntail takes about at least an hr long which is already a very long commitment.

Let's now talk about excess power of an unnerfed MoN. The stronger you are in game, the more effects you will feel wile having this item equipped. For a lv 150 (arbitrary level) and below, you will probably notice minimal increases in damage the lower level you are. With such little impact for many of the players, where is the concern of having an unnerfed MoN being super overpowered? The strong can already buy more power. The real concern is why people want to keep the actualization having the HTP be the best pendent slot item in the game. Is it because people invested heavily into their HTP's? How about those agent earrings or Neo Tokyo lv 115 weapons that made the lv 110 dragon weapons the 2nd best weapons in the game? Are people worried that the MoN will be super common and completely overshadow the horntail pendent? This all goes back tot he notion of why you want to keep the HTP as the best pendent in the game.

This game is a v0.62 game. Scar and Targ helms weren't even introduced until gms v0.72. The Zakum helm was the best helmet in the game for the longest time and not even part of vanilla v0.62 gms. You guys allowed these helms to overshadow zakum helmets yet zakum helms are still in demand. Zakum and Scar(3)/Targa(3) bosses are the same level but zakum seems like a more challenging boss. For all of the reasons I have said above, please leave the MoN unnerfed or least not as heavily nerfed as stated originally.

 

If another real concern is that the Mark of Naricain (MoN) is overshadowing the HTP, then lets not have it overshadow the HTP and outright make it THE best damage pendent in the game. Raise the required level to wear the MoN. Don’t nerf the item.

We don’t know how the GM’s and staff will implement cwkpq; if the bosses will be inadvertently nerfed because an attack skill couldn’t be coded into Maple Legends. We don’t even know if there will be the addition of the JMS pirate boss that would make the boss fight more challenging than vanilla gms cwkpq.

Of course with my presence here, I am absolutely against the nerfing of the MoN in terms of damage. Cwkpq is a first of a kind challenging cooperative expedition party quest that deserves rewards that are better than a lackluster nerfed MoN. If cwkpq itself is coded and makes the pq itself subpar, then let it be it, nerf the rewards. But if cwkpq is near or what is hyped to be, the capes, the MoN, weapons, don’t deserve to be nerfed.

I’m just most excited about the party expedition system where the expedition leader can manage upto 6 parties (realistically) without the delay of kicking and waitting for players to accepet another party invite. It will make switching parties in a multi-party boss run so much more smooth and gives them more control over his or her runs.

 

I agree with the MoN nerf (Horntail is much more challenging than CWKPQ and thus should yield a better reward) but if the Blackfist Cloak is going to have 0 slots and be untradeable I don't see the point of the attack nerf. It's basically a cape upgrade option for people who cannot afford to chaos pacs/pgcs. I like that it's untradeable cause it means people have to actually do the pq to get it, but without any slots it's not like it's gonna overshadow pacs/pgcs even with the better base attack.

 

Why don't we nerf sky ski, red katana, and ele wands while we're at it? This server isn't meant to be custom. If you're going to nerf one thing and not another then that makes no sense.

 

It gives a few % in dmg increase its not like its gamechanging...Keep MoN unnerfed

 

While you have a correct example of the fallacy to appeal to tradition, you also require a good reason for no longer having the HTP to be the best in the game.

Agreed!

This is where I believe a good percentage of players would disagree with you. There is something logically inconsistent with game play if a lower level item is equal to or superior to higher level item. Less work for more only to be followed up with more work for less is...well...stupid!

The MoN is overpowered compared to the HTP such that the level requirement for the MoN is lower than the level requirement for the HTP. I think what people are asking for is not so much that the MoN be nerfed necessarily, but that there be consistency with the philosophy that higher level gear will give better stats. (This brings me back to my arguments for the Zakum/Scar/Targa Helmets to either have them be a higher level requirement or turn them into rings because it makes all level 50+ helmets instantly obsolete - but I'm digressing.)

Agreed! I think this also means that GPQ, CWKPQ, Papulatus, Zakum, and HT should all have particular skill books that are unique to those party quests.

I'm with you on this. Though, I think the Gelt Chocolates have been nerfed on this server? I may be wrong on this, but I remember on GMS they were as good as an Onyx Apple...AND everyone could get one every Hanukkah.

I believe the equation for warriors (I'm using warriors for my example because I'm more familiar with this class, if others know the equations for Archers and Thieves, please reply to this) is roughly 5 STR = 1 W.Att. The HTP gives about 22 STR which equals approximately 4.4 W.Att. The MoN gives 9-11 W.Att, which is about 45-55 STR. This is where I believe a lot of players are having concern with the MoN being so overpowered in comparison to the HTP. I believe nerfing the MoN to 1-3 W.Att is a bit drastic. I think 3-4 W.Att would be more suitable, but I would need to see if the equations for the other classes makes this reasonable.

I think Kimberly came to the realization a long time ago that if she keeps the server a truly v0.62 server, the game would lose interest quickly. There were always a lot of good content that Neckson brought out along with some horrible additions. I believe Kimberly is making great strides to reintroduce the content that came after .62 that were good while keeping the junk that ruined the game out. The main thing I love about this .62 server is that the monsters are still on the maps before Neckson rearranged their locations, and it is that aspect of the game that I think makes a .62 server distinctive from the others (.83 has rearranged monster locations and Maple Island is streamlined, 0.55 servers don't have jump-down, etc.)

I believe you make some good points, though. I don't want this to come across as confrontational. You just asked a lot of good questions and set-up a lot of good hypotheticals that warranted a good response.

 

NERF DEPUTY STAR BECAUSE HORUS' EYE HAS LESS STATS AND IT HAS HIGHER LVL REQUIREMENT PLZ TNX

 

Since there's a few people who are still vehemently against this MoN nerf, could you please go into further detail about how you came up with your numbers? Personally I would be ok with a compromised attack possibility of 2~6 if it's shown that those numbers are not completely broken for an average funded player at the level that CWKPQ is normally first done at (which is late 3rd job to early 4th job). Having a wider range of possible attack would mean more incentive to do more CWKPQ to keep rolling for better stats. Either way, it's clear that Doggo or whoever ran the numbers should further justify them.

Also I think some people are missing the bigger picture that CWKPQ fits a niche in the late 3rd job to early 4th job content. It's not about level requirements for gear (nobody was arguing that), rather it's about at what level can you properly do the content that the power of the gear should be balanced around. The level requirement for the gear is a different argument.

 

Speaking in terms of nerfs because higher level items should be superior to lower level items, that means a lot of the items and monster drops have to change to keep it consistent with this logic. Take the blackfist cloak also being damage nerfed for instance. This cape has a requirement of level 100 and thus be superior if not at least equal to the pink adventure/gaia capes.

The key issue is that items are being nerfed on the basis that it provides extra damage to players with little effort. Late game, the blackfist cloak will be a mear hp cape and by definition, be useless in all other aspects.

It appears as though the main issue now at hand is simply the level requirement for the Mark of Naricain (MoN) and ease of availability for the Blackfist Cloak. The cost of being strong is already expensive. But again, why do players want to keep the horntail pendent as the best pendent in the game? Horntail boss is simply a kill it before it kills you boss while cwkpq involves cooperation based quest. This game is already adding the mummify debuff, making the pq more difficult, and increasing the chance of deaths and a failed party quest. Frankly cwkpq is arguably much harder to complete than horntail, which is now commonly 6-manned. Requirements of cwkpq forces a more diverse roster of players, more communication, and objective based that is tricky and random at times. For such a challenging party quest, more difficult than horntail, why can’t people deserve to receive a new pendent, that is superior to the existing end-game horntail pendent? I’m sure many of us don’t even know the cwkpq pirate boss mechanics unless they’ve actually done their research.

Let us also worry about the warrior’s/bucc’s mob pushing ability with the current aggro knockback problem. If these knockback skills don’t properly work in being able to seperate the bosses/ group them together during the boss fight, it brings cwkpq boss fight into a whole new higher difficulty gameplay which also deserves a better reward, say the unnerfed rewards for cwkpq.

 

You have brought up a lot of good examples to support your claim! Scar/zak helms, neo tokyo weapons and dragon weapons are all very good examples.

However, I just want to compare all the items so we get a better picture of each of their strengths.

I will be using nightlords as the class to compare them with since they benefit a lot from extra attack and REQUIRE alot of secondary stat (unlike warriors) which makes extra dex and attack both valuable to them.

Scar helms are 2 stat stronger than zak helms.

Neo tokyo weapons vary a bit more. For thieves, the claw is 2 attack, 1 luk stronger, but requires 5 more dex to gear. So its +2 attack, -4 luk compared to a purple sleeve. For high level nightlords with strong attack gear and attack potions (onxy apple), 1 attack is worth ~4 luk. (Note that for low level nightlords with poor attack gear and no attack potions, 1 attack is worth ALOT more luk - sometimes up to 10. To get a attack to luk ratio for a nightlord, just divide your total luk by your total weapon attack).

So, at end game conditions neo tokyo claw is 4 stat stronger than dragon purple sleeve.


MoN (unnerfed) is 12 attack 6 luk, 6 dex at max stats,
HTP is 23 luk, 23 dex at max stats (and 3 slots!)

So really, we are comparing 12 attack to 17 luk and dex, or 12 attack to 34 stat. Once again, at end game conditions 1 attack ~ 4 luk.

So MoN is 14 stat stronger than a perfect clean horntail pendant. That means that MoN is 7 times stronger over HTP than Scar helms are over zak helms (at end game conditions) - hence why people think its unbalanced and needs a nerfed. At early game conditions, MoN is stupidly stronger than HTP, and for classes who don't need secondary stat (like warriors) MoN is alot stronger than HTP.

Let me show u the comparison for an optimal 2H sword user (not using ST because dragon weapon or NT weapon with SI is stronger).

For a 2H sword, the damage formula is
(Primary Stat + Secondary Stat) * Weapon Attack / 100
Primary: STR * 4.6
Secondary: DEX

So its basically weapon attack * STR, where 4.6 dex = 1 str.

So a perfect HTP = 23 + 23/4.6 = 28 str.
Perfect MoN = 12 attack + 6 str +6/4.6 = 12 attack and 7.3 str.

I'm not too sure about warriors but I've read that its common consensus that 1 attack is about 5 str. For arguments sake, lets assume the warrior is godly so 1 attack is about 4 str.

48 + 7.3 = 55.3 str for MoN, vs 28 str for HTP.

A max clean MoN is nearly TWO TIMES as strong as a max clean HTP for warrior!

I hope this shows you that while your examples are true, the scale of power between HTP and MoN exceeds that of Scar/zak and Dragon/Neo Tokyo.

If anything, however, I would be willing to make a compromise such that a MoN could be equal, or SLIGHTLY stronger (2-4 stat) in power to a max stat HTP.

So this means we would need to cap the MoNs attack at ~5. The reason I'm willing to let MoN be equal or slightly stronger is that you can use a chaos scroll on HTP to make it even stronger, while this isn't an option for MoN.

 

Where is the team pulling information on the original CWKPQ bonus stage drop table from? I'm just curious to know how accurate it will be to the original rates and items besides what was already mentioned in the OP.

Also an unrelated fun fact: On original release in 2009, the MoN was fully tradeable for a while before Neckson made it untradeable. Right before it was announced that it would become untradeable, people were panic selling them in the FM for cheap.

 

Not OP, but we based our numbers on current damage range formula and tested out its difference for various configurations ranging from different levels, base stats, and so on. Upon further testing, we have determined that generally weapon attack beyond 3 gives MoN an edge over using HTP in most of cases. For example:

Notice how increasing 1 more weapon attack causes HTP to be inferior damage wise. Now comparing this to an un-nerfed MoN:

Granted, these are just one example out of many, and we have yet to factor in a proper mastery skill multiplier as well as how these will actually translate to dpm in game. For those, we will be thoroughly testing in game and make sure these values listed still holds true

Another thing to keep in mind about MoN is that the impact each WA gives will be more beneficial higher base stat you have, meaning 1 WA at level 180 will be much more than same WA at level 120. This is just due to how the formula was created originally and there is nothing much we can do to prevent that. If you are curious about how the formula works, I suggest checking out this website to learn more about it~

So going back to your main question, the reason we came up with this numbers is because we found that to be the most optimal WA that makes the pendant still a little inferior to HTP, while giving enough benefits to make it all worth it for its corresponding level. But these still aren't 100% set and anything is still up for a change, so be sure to keep the discussions going!

We are basing the drop tables from various guides online, but expect a lot of be altered to fit the economy of Legends.

 

In response to akashsky, it has been estsblished that an unnerfed MoN is stronger than a htp. The question is why do you want to make the MoN weaker than the HTP? Is it because it has a lower level requirement than the HTP? Is it harder and more expensive to get a HTP?

There is no precedence for a lower required level item to be weaker than a higher required level weapon. There is no problem with. the MoN to be the new best pendent in the game. As for difficulty, horntail is arguably a more simplistic and easier process than it is to acquire a MoN. So shouldn’t that result in a pendent that is at least if not stronger than the HTP? So why in your opinion do you want to see the MoN nerfed? The game allows the MoN to be superior. MapleLegends is proposing a nerf to the MoN as well as other balancing tweaks and wants to hear our opinion on this matter. Before finalizing this issue.

Also note that a perfect brown workglove is 40% stronger than a white work glove yet you seem to not have an issue with this.

 

Currently, the staff want to curb the MoN’s damage to be sometimes slightly better than the HTP. Some who approve or agree with the nerf are argueing that because the HTP is a higher level item, and late game that the MoN needs to be nerfed. I, among other people argue that this is perfectly fine, based on the conditions of difficulty of HT vs CWKPQ are (mainly me at the moment) as well letting the MoN be the new end-game pendent for MapleLegends is completely reasonable.

I would like to hear more from the people who are in favour of a nerfed MoN rather than an unchanged MoN because the notation of keeping it in line with HTP’s power is unjustifiable. Is there some sort of code that requires an increase in the damage cap and damage hacking detection systems that I (we) don’t know of?

 

Literally every weapon for every class in the game scales up with level. Idk what game you've been playing

I think you're also ignoring the fact that cwkpq can be done about 40 levels earlier than HT, and no, HT is not "arguably more simplistic", it isn't. Again, you're suggesting it's okay for something like HPQ to give a better helm than zhelm, ie: earlier content giving better rewards than later content.

Can't tell if you're trolling at this point, btw, bwgs are much much harder to obtain than regular work gloves...

 

What game have you been playing? Literally level 70 red katana is the best sword and level 85 sky ski is the best spear.....

 

Just to clarify that the level difference to wear said MoN and HTP is only 10 levels. Also please explain why you think horntail will be more difficult than cwkpq. Have you done both before? Have you seen other people do it before? Also note that cwkpq has roughly 1.5 jump quests that must be done (not everone needs to do it). What happens if no one in your group can do jump quests well? It is going to be a struggle. What happens if no one in your group can boss (kill horntail)? They both could be equal challenges.
The real question is how difficult will the boss fight be? Cwkpq boss fight is harder than horntail? Well that depends on how cwkpq is coded and if there will be any version restrictions that limit the difficulty of the 4/5cwkpq bosses. Also you need to define what difficulties there are in cwkpq boss fight vs horntail. Horntail can 1/1, seduce, stun, dispell, debuffs as well constantly hit hard.. Cwkpq bosses have an instant K/O combo (from archer boss) as well as the potential inability to seperate the bosses to fight them 1 at a time causing multiple bosses to use their abilities on you at the same time; such as mummify, stun, dispell, 1/1, poison gas, and also maybe hit hard.

You say horntail needs cooperation? Well cwkpq needs at least as much cooperation as horntail if not more.

 

So by your logic, if cwkpq is definied as a harder set of actions required to obtain a MoN than killing horntail to receive a HTP, then Prophet is also in favour of no MoN nerf.

 

I know you're not responding to me directly but I don't think anybody is intentionally arguing that gear should be balanced around item level requirement. That's not how many equips in this version are balanced and I am definitely not refuting that. However, the power of existing equips are already somewhat balanced around the level at which the content they are obtained from is designed for. That is a precedence that is worth considering for CWKPQ which is content for early 4th job. Those are two different arguments we are having.

You do have somewhat of a valid point about the complexity of CWKPQ, but I would not go as far as to say it's harder than HT.