Multiclienting on Bosses

Anyone who thinks Manne is nerfed solely for AFK farming needs a reality check

 

Here are some objective consequences of banning boss multiclienting in bosses, you can interpret the result as you wish.
-Buccs would be significantly buffed
-DK, Pally, Hero, MM, mages, bishops, corsairs would be significantly nerfed
-NLs would be slightly nerfed, but since SE isn't really mule that much anyways they would be buffed relative to the field. HT meta would shift back towards a NL/SE meta.
-BM would be slightly buffed to do slightly more demand for SE, but otherwise could care less (laughs in self sufficient buffs)
-Shadowers would be slightly buffed, due to their utility as sed mule being more relevant now with no mules to tank sed(they also do not benefit off of SI and virtually do not benefit off SE).
-A good amount of people are going to be pretty upset. Whether you think its a good thing or not, a lot of people have chosen their class based on the assumption that they can mule necessary buffs in boss fights. Obviously these people would feel frustrated if you throw a wrench into plans and ruin many hours invested in main/mule characters.
-HT in particular would become more about equips/levels as opposed to multiclienting ability. To quickly inject some personal bias in here, I think that its a good thing that our endgame boss is not a punching bag dpm check. I think its cool that mid level players can make up for the gap between them and endgame tryhard players with perf equips by being good at multiclienting. But whether or not you agree with me here, it is an objective fact that HT would have a lower skill ceiling.

 

I wouldn't call a "shift back towards a NL/SE meta" objective. The comp is strong, but heavily dependent on the se not dying/dcing or the run risks immediate failure. An si-centered comp is much more balanced between cleave and range, and can better accommodate issues as they arise. A removal of mules would really just show how few buccs there actually are (not enough to fit in the number of parties that run the boss). This is the bigger issue for a class that is honestly just as important (if not more so for some groups) as archers.

You can say your actions dont affect the general populace, but they most assuredly do play their part in character creation and balance between the jobs. I dont have anything against the dex-bucc personally; at worst it keeps me unable to run with certain squads that I know I can keep pace with in damage, simply because they choose to reduce numbers and we're the easiest to cut out. This really cant be changed. A nerd to avoid will simply turn the mules into LUK-BUKS, and will turn us into objectively worse warrior clones in both usefulness and gear options (compared to warriors, our avoid can give us a better version of guardian without even having base dex). I personally do not want that gutted for a temporary stop-gap to muling. The muling mentality, however, definitely impacts the number of people willing to take up the class, further enforcing that we "must" be muled, simply because we dont exist in enough supply to meet demand. A blanket removal of mules would only exasperate this issue. Theres tons of se because they're perceived as "wanted" and "necessary", perhaps a relic from an older NL meta. There arent as many si because they are perceived as "mule" and, in older comps, simply not needed. Even if you claim you never directly impact others choices, the effects are still present.

I dont buy into your actions not affecting the overall game balance, but I dont believe them wrong either. Game balance simply cannot be done on both fronts. As it stands with heavy muling, only damage is important, and as an easily muled dpm support, we fit the bill on the first players to be replaced. The solution? Buff our damage to be equal to everyone else in these scenarios. But that will only give us an extreme edge in literally all other facets of the gane (where we are already pretty good), because we'd then have damage and buffs all in one. The game just simply WAS NOT balanced around everyone having access to all the characters at the same time. And I'd rather not have my class and potentially the rest of the game ruined for the sake of normalizing all classes in the name of "balance". I'm able to just ignore the "rebirthed" mulers with all the buffs at once living in the cave, but the effects are still rippling outside of the cavernous safe space.

 

I pretty much agree with all of your post, but I also want to point out that there are more BMs than buccs simply because they are a better class as a standalone. Even without taking into account the benefits of SE for the party, BMs have enough merrits on their own. The trade off of damage vs utility for NL/BM is balanced in a way such that people find both classes worth making. But the tradeoff for buccs bad enough tot he point where most people don't find it worth making buccs. The reality is that buccs are just kind of bad outside of SI/TL.

 

Banning multiclienting in bossing is senseless talk. I get that it's not "nostalgic" maple, but it's 2020 and we are here to play how we want to play. And for many people, innovating and optimizing with the tools we are given is a huge part of that.

Multiclienting in bossing is a fundamental aspect of this server and a huge draw for me and others to continue progressing no matter what stage we're at. It opens up the game in a lot of ways and allows people to challenge themselves. I made all of my characters keeping in mind that I want to continue bossing on my shad. Removing a longstanding provision to appease the minority of players (incoming assumption) who think they're not getting on boss runs because they're replaced by a mule is whack. Nah those people just gotta bootstrap, find a crew to boss with or put the team together themselves.

I have a half-dex bucc that primarily stays in HT cave, but I wouldn't ever let it replace the 2 buccs I run with regularly. What I mean by that is like people are always gonna run with who they want to run with anyways.

So with that being said, I don't properly understand the movement of the argument that is for banning multiclienting. Because from what I see it just stems from pettiness x)

What do you (general "you" directed at anyone in support of a multiclient ban) even have to gain, or rather, what beneficial change happens for you even if multiclienting were to get banned? Alleviated bitterness because the playing field is now "even"? Please lmao, it's only detrimental to people. I'm sure most of y'all against other people multiclienting in bossing (clearly not all, I see u joot) haven't put in the time and effort to even have that capability.

I'm just confused, all these dudes adamant against multiclienting, you want to eradicate thousands of hours of the work of other people for what? Like what is the reason? Is it an issue of fairness? How could it be, when we're the ones who invest the heavy time and effort to get these secondary characters to utility level? It seems like y'all just mad that other people put in more work.

Please keep in mind I'm not saying dex buccs and HH mules aren't OP additions to HT teams. But as others have alluded to, I don't know a single team where these mules make or break the squad, they are simply enhancements. My biggest point in this mess of text is that banning multiclienting in bossing is a ridiculously over the top suggestion with much more extreme consequences than simply (lul "simply") nerfing these broken mules.

Lastly, again as others have mentioned banning multiclienting is just not a practical change to implement.

- You want the GMs to have to deal with all these clowns using a VPN on a VPN on a VPN?
- You want every CWK to be a 10+ man? (Though that may fix the scroll prices pepethink)
- What if we can't find a bucc to join us for HT, am I just supposed to not use the bucc mule I leveled for this situation?

I'm a big fan of Moob saying let people play how they want to play. Stop tryna stop us from having a good time!!

 

I dont disagree with the damage statement, but a good deal of our issue is also people not knowing how to use our class. On paper, we really *shouldnt* be doing as much damage as archers, due to the vast usefulness of TL and its ability to save most boss runs (I'd rate si roughly equal to se in utility when party builds around it). Our usefulness lies in utility and versatility, able to work on just about any pillar of the game. The rest of the damage difference imo stems from an overtuned se, but that's a topic for another day...

 

Multiclienting has not always been allowed on this server, but due to constant abuse Kimmy gave in despite her hesitations regarding it.

So having a dex-bucc seduce/time leap/speed infusion mule that takes one of the most annoying parts about HT and makes it a negligible issue is not game breaking? Not sure I really buy that. It doesn't stem from pettiness, it's abuse.

I have absolutely nothing to gain. We are bringing into question issues regarding the policies. Why is it that people can abuse the way a skill works on a mule? HH mules literally serve no purpose than to make HT ten minutes faster? Why don't those people just play a paladin to begin with?

If it doesn't break the squad, then why be staunchly opposed to it? Seems kind of ridiculous to nerf the broken mules when that effects the people NOT abusing the game (like in the case of AFK farmers abusing auto-aggro).

It can very easily be scripted to not allow multiple players on one IP address sign up for bosses. If the consequence is a BAN on all characters, people will not multiclient in bosses, or use VPNs.

 

Let's be honest, those levels are shit. Do we really care that people could speed level through the most tedious and mind numbing part of the game more quickly?

 

It doesnt change the fact that It was an actual grinding spot. People actually partied and trained there. Just because people saw people afk farming there doesnt mean that was from the get-go. Regal grinded regardless lol chill dude.

 

Of course people cared, because only a few classes had the option to speed through those levels like that. That is what imbalance is; people who make a game-endorsed choice (a class that isn't warrior/brawler/I/L) is much, much worse at something important than people who make another choice that should be equal.

 

artificial I understand you have your values and I do respect that in itself, but you missed like all the key points. People using mules has no effect on you, you're trying to make things more difficult for other people for the sake of your own principles. But this isn't your server, the rules already exist and these things we're discussing are not considered abuse as it stands. It's just false to keep labeling them as such, the GMs have been aware of summon-farming at voodoos and mannes and leprechauns, and HH mules and dex buccs in HT - but it's still allowed. People with mules finding valuable ways to optimize are simply making use of the game features.

I don't understand how you can blow over the entire concept that people have to work very hard to make these mules usable... If you've ever leveled a character to 130+ on this server then you know it is quite a long-term commitment, and if you haven't then how is anything you're saying even relevant? And can't you respect this is motivation to play a lot of games, like finding new and innovative ways to do things within the confines of what's given?

You still haven't said a real reason why multiclienting in bossing should be banned, it seems like you just don't want it.

So what if someone wants to put 500 base dex on a bucc, you're not gonna complain if someone puts 500 str on a mage even though "it's not meant to be played that way." What other people do with their characters doesn't concern or affect you, there's no need ruin other people's hard work. You're saying they should just play the pally but people make the HH mule because they don't want to play a pally LOL they want to play their main character but also help the HT run go faster.

Who are you to dictate how people want to use a class, or what the purpose of a class should be, or how people should play the game? If someone wants to go through all of those dozens and dozens (and dozens) of hours of grinding to contribute more value to the boss runs they join, why do you want to stop them from helping so much. If the GMs start to categorize these things as abuse then we have problems, but for now banning multiclienting in bossing just seems petty

 

I agree with OP. Make the bad players play the mules and give them 0% splits.

 

That's not true. I took my archer AND hermit there and both did very well. Not as well as a warrior, but still incredibly good. The only classes that can't really train there are priests, but that class is not even close to balanced in a whole other way.... If we're really going to balance classes around inequality, Bishops should be gutted. No other class gets a buff as powerful as 50% extra exp, potless training for most of 2nd to 3rd job, and fantastic meso making potential.

 

I think you're misunderstanding my post. I said I don't care that people could train at mannies and level very fast since it made the more tedious (shit) levels less boring.

 

Ah yes, let's make more difficult and less popular the main support class in the game that everybody benefits from.

jfc

 

welp no multiclienting allowed in bossing anymore. it really be like dat

 

Just means more computers on simultaneously making the sweaty people sweatier (quite literally).