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Add a Cooldown on Shifter

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by -ovv, Mar 31, 2022.

  1. UnknownCode
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    UnknownCode Nightshadow

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    I don't think Shadow Shifter is the problem, I think if a nerf should be given to it I'd say the LUK stat should be receiving a nerf if any.

    Hovering over the LUK stat states "The higher it is, the higher the avoidability is. It determines the Thief's attacking ability and the hands. Also, the higher it is, the less EXP a character loses by dying."
     
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  2. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    Buffing everything else to be on par with your 'strongest' class is just gonna lead to powercreep. Additionally, balancing/nerfing 1 class requires significantly less work than buffing all others. I'm not saying that because laziness is my preferred approach, I'm just saying it because I think making a hypothetical 9 changes instead of making 1 change is less likely to cause unforeseen complications.

    If the biggest downside to nerfing 1 class (as opposed to buffing all others) is that some NLs will get sad about no longer being the easiest DPS machine (which they still may very well be, after this change), that's perfectly fine with me :^)
     
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  3. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    Just gotta fix the outliers imo and the game doesn't have to be perfectly balanced, a small tweak can go a long way towards ''fairness''.

    I don't think Night Lords are a whole lot better than the other jobs (mostly depends on what boss you're fighting), could maybe get a small nerf though imo the avoid is fine I'd rather see a little bit less damage or remove the unwarranted shadow star buff as mentioned before. Being a busted job is kindof class identity for Night Lords though.

    Make cleave more important (with new or old content), give axe heroes their crit, do whatever must be done for DRKs and give bandits some love (there's honestly too many good suggestions made to pick from..).
     
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  4. mjk
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    mjk Timer

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    Buff other weaker classes and nerf all attack pots to reduce power creep and make gear progression more rewarding/necessary

    nerfing attack pots will also hurt NL’s more than other classes which will help close the damage gap
     
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  5. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    Contrary to popular belief, nightlord is actually balanced at the higher level, and requires skill to play optimally just like the other classes.

    The only change i would riot for is a removal of alchemist duration increase.
     
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  6. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Would you agree that the standard deviation of dpm is much smaller for Nightlords in relation to skill gap - compared to other classes? Assuming all else - like equips, levels, etc. - are standardized.

    Also, would you agree that this is largely in part due to avoid/dodge rate?
     
  7. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    in my oppinion they just deserve a flat damage nerf, let their dpm little lower and thats all.
    And shifter isn't that op, this nerf is going to literally KILL every low level thief, shifter is very important on early stages and very """bad""" at later stages, giving about less than 15% avoid rate, its easier nerfing the avoid per luk, but this is going to affect one of the weakest class in the game too, very hard thing to balance, thats why i think its easier just nerf dmg.
     
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  8. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    The exaggerations of having to pot and it "literally killing every low level thief" are pretty meme to me. The 'nuisances' of having to pot more at lower levels is something 'literally' every other class faces. This is 'literally' a part of the game that every class deals with while it's being seen as a given to Nightlords. Apparently having the highest avoid gain isn't enough, but they need to have the highest damage, attack pot efficiency, highest weapon upgrade efficiency, highest mobility - in addition to having the most afk playstyle - yielding the largest returns.

    I also find it kind of funny that there is so much more concern for how this affects Nightlords top end damage while in the same vein it also slightly lowers Shadowers, which is a much less warranted nerf. Of course, if anything were to be implemented, it would 100% warrant Shadower buffs in addition to the nerf. But who knows, maybe Nightlords will get 4 min Shadow Star from this instead.

    Even with the math laid out by Alyosha, people are crying about getting hit by damage 100 times more in a 1.5 hour long run. :^)
     
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  9. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    I would agree that the SD is lower, because its much easier to play nightlord at a mediocre level compared to other classes. Avoid is a big part of it, but also how the class plays. High mobility with flashjump means its easier to climb ropes / move to different body parts, and being able to jump attack for free without jump-casting are additional factors.

    I don't think that NLs having an easier time at less optimized levels of play is a balance issue.
     
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  10. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    With that said, wouldn't you agree that the proposed suggestion would widen the skill gap between optimally played Nightlords and the bad ones? Is this not something to be desired, or are we supposed to all believe that braindead NL game play should continue to be the standard?

    I never meant for this to be a balance suggestion change, though consequentially it does slightly lower the top-end dpm efficiency of thieves. Rather, I want to see meaningful changes that highlight the better player over braindead ones.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. flow
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    flow Slimy

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    Hey, don't said that when you clearly never played thieves on early stages, not everyone skips the first 160 levels, thieves only shine on late game, and NL, bringing 0 utility (for some reason you completaly ignore this) to his party and having a mandatory buff to play (also ignore this) needs to be at least the best single target dpm class at almost every boss, this is how the game works, someone who just increases insanely the dps of the entire party can't deal more damage, thats all.
    They're 100% carried by SS on early game (btw we already did the same thing with NL crits, but since this literally fucked the early stages of NL they wipe'd it).

    Insane avoid is the nature of their kit, and if legends staff make a rework like this we'll see too many rage quits, let the class alone and just buff who's underrated, this is not league of legends and we can't keep nerfing classes who people spent a insane high amount of time on it.
    We can get content where NL's is shit (don't like the idea), we can get little damage nerf, shuriken recharge price increased to match pots save, and even a nerf on alchemist, but not on their avoid, making the gameplay of the job clunkier just because it is OP? I can't agree sorry.

    Also, gameplay mechanics and wash shouldn't be used as balance parameter, literally don't make sense on a RPG game, some heroes spent more time and effort than a for example, bowmaster, but they are worse, because they leveled in 3 months playing the game, instead of in 2 weeks buying leech? This is unfair with people who want bring the max potential of basic classes like heroes, paladins, shadowers etc.
     
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  12. Thuglifer
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    Thuglifer Capt. Latanica

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    feels somewhat unnecessary and very weird, also getting kinda Night walker gameplay vibes here, not really a fan of it since u do have folks who do lag very frequently and it does add onto the clunky feels if needing to dark sight and exit on time/potting. Do keep in mind that we do have players across the globe playing here. If any, this isn't promoting HP washing optional gameplay imo even if it is optional to ds (more hp while in ds wins majority of the time), this just gives thicc 30k hp thieves an easier time compared to unwashed ones.

    even so, if this is happening, would be interesting on how it affects dpm across various bosses. could even do a: 100% crit rate upon entering and exiting Dark sight on next attack cast (1 or multiple) within 0.5s or so.

    hm, werent majority of non NL classes significantly buffed over the past years, if so, i wouldn't say it's a fair comparison of "changing so many classes to compete NL, why not nerf NL and change less"? When it's probably just 1-2 classes who could use some more love instead.
     
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  13. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Oh no! Nightlords, an end-game class, struggles in early game? Who would've thought?
    An early game that lasts less than a month of grinding and is widely irrelevant because lul intmule meta.

    Rage quitting because you're getting hit for damage 5% more is laughably the most entitled thing I've seen in forums in awhile.

    Having to reposition your Nightlord every 10 seconds isn't going to be the end of the world, and it doesn't ruin Nightlords in any format. You guys can freely jump attack to reposition. The only thing this suggestion affects are the people who have Triple Throw on 3x macro and watch anime on the side during boss runs.

    Special shout outs to all the Nightlords who attack through the entirety of weapon cancel and are the last ones to enter the next map after preheads are down, while still TTing air. :^)
     
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  14. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    It would widen the skill gap, but it would do so by hurting the casual player. Changes like these are usually bad for the server overall. I would rather see changes to boss mechanics where certain skills will 100% hit you, kind of like the falling rocks in horntail.
     
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  15. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    My suggestion offered compound solutions to various problems in the server:
    • Nightlord multifaceted dpm/gameplay supremacy should be tempered down and brought a little closer to the other classes.
    • Normalization of braindead/heavily multiclientable gameplay could be helped by rewarding more active gameplay by adding in mechanically-based micro-optimizations.
    • Effectiveness of an afk Shadower sed mule could be helped by making dodge rate not so guaranteed. Would also make lukless HP shad sed mules less durable and more pot-costly, thus incentivizing use of regular shadowers more.
    On your comment regarding hurting the casual player, I guess you are then taking stance that braindead NL game play should continue to be the standard, as that play-style does cater to the normal player? I disagree with the notion that casual players being hurt affects the server negatively - butthurt maybe and we'd suffer through the whiney posts, but I'll be here to make fun of them :V - mostly because other classes have casual players as well, and they already have to deal with taking damage and repositioning MUCH more frequently than Nightlords. A small change in their avoid/dodge-rate mechanics would not change their gameplay so dramatically that it'd become any less playable than the other classes. Their natural avoid rate still far surpasses others, and shifter would still work every 15 seconds (cd debatable, also can be refreshed as a mechanic).

    As for the boss mechanics 100% hit rate, I really like this suggestion. Maybe even adding aerial/ground-based attacks so that those privy to the animations could mechanically dodge them? Kind of like the sed rocks in PB. But still, it wouldn't tackle some of the other aforementioned issues.
     
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  16. Snork
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    Snork Capt. Latanica

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    Maybe we should just accept that majority of endgame is afk cookie-clicker tier gameplay

    Give BM alt-tab hurricane
     
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  17. Thuglifer
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    Thuglifer Capt. Latanica

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    isnt problems really... it's just your type of gameplay preference
     
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  18. OP
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    -ovv Horntail

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    If you can’t see how brain dead game play won’t lead to more and more problems in the future, I can’t help you.

    Players have migrated from safe spot afk farming ghost ship to multimage ToT.

    Quad NL boss farming is in our future.
     
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  19. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    If that's the problem you're trying to solve wouldn't it be much easier to just not allow skills to be used more than once in a single macro?
     
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  20. Thuglifer
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    Thuglifer Capt. Latanica

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    after a long day of work, i dont see how this is a huge problem? sure brain dead but it isn't as much as an issue as u would call it to be. If any, this suggestion brings more problems than fixes, not to mention non-hp washing optional friendly. Also, multimage?
     
    • Agree Agree x 5

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