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Bring back the nostalgia /stop the loss of players /hp washing - the solution

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Magen, Dec 6, 2021.

  1. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I'm saying that the process can be made more enjoyable by making alternative options more viable. There really is no reason why the most efficient route needs to be the most boring one. In fact, I find it kind of ridiculous that the most encouraged route to end-game is what has probably been the most damaging to this server (e.g. expediting the age of this server by catapulting players into end-game, forcing every player to create a mage, giving them tools to excessively farm mesos and multiple end-game characters simultaneously, etc.), yet nothing has really been done about it despite it being pointed out several times throughout the years.

    We're eventually going to reach a point in this server where nobody needs to play their mages anymore except to farm mesos. They'll have already leeched their main attackers to end game. When they realize bossing is less profitable than farming, what happens then? Do they go back to making new characters to leech? Do they go back to farming mesos so they can gear their attackers for bossing content that has been established as meaningless? Was it even worth the time and effort to create a mage to leech an INT mule to end-game, thereby skipping all the content?

    The sad thing is while this game is huge, it feels empty. There's a lot of places to explore, quests to complete, and content to be played, but all of it is dead because there never has been any incentive to play most of it.

    It should be about the process, not the end goal.
     
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  2. Holp
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    Holp Master Chronos Retired Staff

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    Main point of this post would be my view (on progression?) as a somewhat longtime player of the server.

    My experiences playing ML.

    Currently I have a level 200 Shadower that started washing at around level 155 with around <10 base INT because I didn't know about it. (Can still PB with bfc+pet hp though!) EDIT: Should note I was lucky It was a shad or else I probably wouldn't have been able to participate in the end-game content.

    I am one of the people that is currently playing a hopefully eventual 30K HP character but would like to say as I'm not one to care too much about how high my DPM is in the end game, it's another Shadower, since I actually enjoy the class quite a bit.
    While leveling this character I realised I may be leveling a bit too fast and might even hit 200 before being even half-way towards the 30K goal so I decided to make another character while waiting for NX to pile up. :sleep:
    It got me thinking that I would have to invest in INT to wash and whatnot and got demoralised to create it.
    Then I thought maybe I will finally make a mage after 3 years of being on this server, since I would not be chucking AP into a useless stat and progress through the game as it was intended. It would also let me understand the class that I would say I 'hated'(because of selling/leech) a bit better instead of just hating it blindly.
    So I made an F/P.
    Honestly, it was an experience I have not had ever since making my first character in ML.
    Being able to pump my main stat, seeing the gradual progression of your character.. it really is a satisfying playthrough. It was such a nice feeling that later down the line I made another mage (IL this time). Just like the F/P, it was yet another satisfying experience. They both ended up getting T10 rings(I/L leveled from 120~125 getting T10).
    The problems came after reaching 4th job and learning the global skills (Meteor/Blizzard/Genesis). You soon realise that even if you don't want to sell/leech, you almost NEED to be leeching at least something since if you want HS, you need someone that can actually gain EXP from your kills to get the HS benefits. Not to condemn anyone but personally I am against selling leech and have not sold leech to this day and instead just give free leech to friends(sometimes strangers) just to gain EXP on the mage. Yes, you can use other skills to level if you must but there's a reason the skills(globals) exist(to be used).
    I forget where I was going with this :sleep: but in short, the people that actually play mages for what they are instead of their sole purpose being to farm naturally lean towards selling leech since 95% of their 4th job is about ult-ing, and a common thought that would come to mind would be, "might as well gain some income while I'm at it" which ends up encouraging leech selling; aka; no progression play, only leech.

    In short; leeching is kinda doodoo
    and
    It really is about the process. :(:sleep:
     
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  3. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    If you nerf the current most efficient EXP gaining method - leeching, Kimmy will not approve it, for she felt it is unfair for new players since they can't use the same meta anymore.
    If you nerf the current most efficient skill for meso farming - directly reduce meso gain on Genesis/Blizzard/Meteor, will you accept it?

    Then, if you wanna introduce new content, or buff existing ones, can you make it to be better than leeching, but at the same time, not OP?
    Can these new or buffed content ensure the process cannot be accelerated with a help of another high level character, ie, currently mages that are doing leeching?

    It's already here, isn't it, kekw.


    For me it's about the process, thats why I played only a Hero without making any mages, and without buying any leech. The result and end goal is only just a topping for me.
    I swing my 35m claymore till lvl 167, and I'm pretty satisfied with it. I'm sure most other players will not accept it.

    Given a choice to choose between process and result, majority gonna choose result. Hoping most people will choose process is like a paradise itself. Everyone gonna compare to each other, and get fomos. New players get stressed out feeling the need to make a mage to wash, despite the 120 int + multiple MP wash route being almost as time efficient, and also, bloodwashing is always an option available.
     
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  4. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Isn't that an incredibly poor argument against nerfing something? you would then always be able to use the argument that it's unfair for new players because they can't abuse the same things
     
  5. Holp
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    Holp Master Chronos Retired Staff

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    If this is true, not to hate on anyone but I really hope that was not the reasoning behind it. It might be the one reasoning that is very hard to get behind. If something is going/on the way downhill, even if late, addressing it surely would be the better result in the long run. Just like how shaolin bookshelves were changed, there were people that abused it but now it's as if nothing happened and is the norm. :sleep:
     
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  6. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Thats based on my memories at least.
     
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  7. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Not my argument. I remember Kimmy decides to continue allow HP washing (and not removing everyone's washed HP) and leeching due to it.

    I'm more than happy to be proven wrong
     
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  8. OP
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    Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    Almost every NT bosses required above 12k hp to participate in, also toad, the boss and so on...
    what was your last time to see DK in NT content? or more correctly question, if you take every NT runs that went with HB, how many of them the HB was a mule and not an attacker? In my opinion (base on my experience only) its about 90% hb mule, 10% attacker if not worse.
    I'm not tryna defame DK, in fact I think its one of the best classes out there in our server, but to see HB mules everywhere just makes me sad; its the worst practice of vanila maple at least this is my opinion.




    mage and warrior(wash a war can be done with 40 int base so its not that dramatic loss of range) can do early game content with washing


    I think its all matter of balance, lpq takes at least 20mins, so 1k nx is reasonable in my opinion, but yet if you want to proper wash your dps character, you wont be able to participate pqs because the huge int that you required to have.

    In-case you could level your dps character - NL/shad/bucc from the beginning and get loss of 10% of your range for having 'washing-points' would you have had better ML-gameplay experience ?
    I agree with every word, but yet I think 'the fear of missing' is still a problem for people that start to play here cause simply that question goes in your head - "why would I play maple-legends, if i can just find other server that provides me about the same gameplay experience without the 'fear of missing' "- in short- why would I go somewhere I fear to miss something in it, while I can get it somewhere else?
    I like this server, for real, but seeing the amount of online people here getting lower and lower, should bump a red light for us and see where are we wrong, should we ease the meta?
    and -
    giving extra 10 or 20 INT wont solve the problem, for example, pirate class need 160int for 1 wash, how 10 int would make any difference in INT base?
    also, my solution keeps you voting for the server as much as before, as I believe thats the actual reason for all hp-washing system.
    like the solution of mine or not, I think voting for the server should not be change, as that our income in new players from the beginning.
    I like your maple gameplay and attitude to the game, but there are few characters that can be fix on late washing and its warrior, mage (actually better starting from 100 and on?) and shad (cause of meso-guard).
    this thread is about to make the process to the end-game more enjoyable
    same people who abused shaolin are now abusing something else, but now instead of leeching the community 'on the way' they are just farming mesos alone
    making party-content more profitable -like pqs/bosses and whatsoever is the right choice to do if you wish to get party-gameplay server and not lonely farming.
     
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  9. Eldric
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    Eldric Slime

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    My solution for rings will not diminish voting for the system. People will still vote as usual for washing purposes. The ring would not give int but instead the base stat that people need at low level to hit mobs and train well. And at low levels where people need to have higher int, the ring would have to give way more than 10 AP (how much might require some in-depth thinking)
     
  10. OP
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    Magen
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    Magen Selkie Jr.

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    then how can u balance the players that wash and those who not?
    like if someone do not want to wash at all does he get the extra stats from ring? or do you mean rings that translate your int into your main stats (like having 250 base int, will translate to 250 luk (for thief))?
    if your solution referred to translate int into main stats, its kinda similar to my original solution but other way to implement it?
    in fact if you think about it deeper, your solution make the washing progress even easier cause there is no reason to wash your int back but just having this ring with abnormal stats?)
     
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  11. zeroxlr
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    zeroxlr Windraider

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    i saw this somewhere to in my search for washing guides on ML… not sure where though…

    ———————————————————-

    Basically GMS built in p2w washing. That’s why they programmed AP Resets into the game.

    If taking out washing, then there must be massive HP/MP equips to 30k hp/mp to compensate as a reward for Voting.
    • since we’re a Vote2 comfortably play endgame content server??
    —————————————————————

    OnionSmart

    Vote2Content Solution:
    2 years Vote Cash = APRs = 30k HP
    1/2 year Vote Cash = 30k mp

    Roughly 3 years @ 36 months total.

    Vote Cash Upgrade Ring!!
    • Buy 10 vote cash ring Upgrade Scrolls to reach 30k hp/mp
    • 1 upgrade scroll = 3k hp/mp
    • 1 upgrade scroll = 3.6 months worth of vote cash
    We still vote, and remove the math and base int issue of washing

    OnionPerfect
     
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  12. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    my opinion: ring gives some weapon attack. lets say 8, you can change it to balance.

    ring is required to advance to 4th job. if u do not give back your ring, you cannot advance.

    ring requires, say, 50 int to equip. non-washers cannot benefit from it
     
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  13. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Unfair to warriors :(
     
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  14. zeroxlr
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    zeroxlr Windraider

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    i agree haha

    i guess it’d have to be a Class Specific Vote Cash Upgrade Ring instead.

    To reach 30k hp/mp of Upgrade Scrolls for the Vote Cash Ring in terms of vote cash years:
    • warriors = 1 years
    • Archer/sair/bucc/thief = 2 years
    • Mage/beginner = 3-4 years
    The Upgrade Scrolls for the Vote Cash Ring would be priced for their respective class.

    OnionMad
    Could be a coding nightmare lol
     
  15. zeroxlr
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    zeroxlr Windraider

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    A washers’ ring would be cool! Maybe easier to program?

    Could increase the ATT of the Washers Ring on Base Int:

    INT required/ATT bonus
    50 = +8att
    100=+12att
    200=+16att
    300=+24att
    400=+36att

    Something like this? Starts weak, but stronger with each Base Int bracket?
    • currently… 3rd Job Instructor Boss could be tough without apples/heartstoppers for washers
    Then return Washers Ring to 4th job instructor for job advancement.
     
  16. Discor
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    Discor Slimy

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    I remember a thread where it was confirmed that the drop rate for event drops is lower if you use ultimate skills to farm.

    about normal drops I can't be sure, but from experience I can confidently say the drop rate for my page killing mobs 1 by one and for my mage ulting all over the map feels the same.
    and it is not just me, again it might be just a very spread and strongly believed rumor, but when farming for quests/events/specific drops with other mages I am constantly being told not to use the ult.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Maybe I am just superstitious, or maybe i look at it wrongly and it is not that mages are nurfed but that single target skills are buffed for drop rate...HMMMM....HMMMMFoxF6
     
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  17. zeroxlr
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    zeroxlr Windraider

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    Technically the Staff can not disclose to us... because... their policies?
    • also we're technically not supposed to ask them directly... only indirectly and with hints??
    OnionConfused

    But based on statistical distribution of mob drop rates of all possible items on any 1h kill map per 1 hour, an anecdotal opinion i can guess/speculate...

    I'd say yes, you're maybe correct in ults giving less special-drops (events/gacha/vote cash)
    • especially on high density maps that you can 1attack/1kill vs 1attack/multikill

    OnionSweat ...idk anything plz dont ban me LOL
    • im probably very wrong on my info... so if anyone has better drop rates of event/gacha/vote cash items, then please correct me.
    • i was able to farm up to +100 APRs and finish 1 set of raffles in the previous event just from 1attack/1kill on low-level high-density maps.
    • 4-5 hours per day for the whole event duration
    • using Thunderbolt gave me a little less event/gacha/vote cash drops total, over a period of a 4-5hour session vs using Magic Claw
    • mages on the same map using Gen/blizzard, and a random CB using Boomerang Step, was getting about the same rates as using Thunderbolt, which was less than Magic Claw (i was CC-ing to ask everyone's event drop rates)

    • most likely the fastest drop rates = ranged normal/skill that's 1attack/1kill (sair/thief/archer/mage) on any high density maps
     
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  18. Eldric
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    Eldric Slime

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    1) I'm undecided if the ring should translate int to stats OR just give stats. Imo, I think it should just give stats. The imbalance created only happens at low levels (since the ring only exists at lower levels). This imbalance exists even now, when players choose to wash or not to wash. I believe its only fair to make it harder for people to hp wash, but not too difficult to the point that the game is unplayable.

    2) You are wrong on the last point about washing progress becoming easier. The ring disappears at higher levels (when the player can still possibly play even with high int. Example : A level 60 character with 200 int is MUCH harder to play than a level 130 character with 200 int because the int sets you back about 40 levels.
    Furthermore, there is a need to wash your int back because who wants to be set back by 40 levels especially when you do not have the ring anymore?
     
  19. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    there are many arguments against nerfing along this line and nostalgia reasons as well. but right now, i dunno whats nostalgic with opening up my pc and leeching 5-6 for hours daily? sorry, i feel empty :X
     
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  20. Nise
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    Nise Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    I'm not Kimmy so I can't say definitely what she did or didn't say, but I think its more so a regurgitation of a big reason why people don't want some features removed. Times change and the consensus of the community changes too ofc, but I do vividly recall two years ago there was a sizeable number of people that didn't want us to remove HP washing. Some of the arguments you presented there are just repeats of what they used to say I believe.

    (Fun fact, this is why we ended up with a Monster Book ring and Pet HP scrolls, because any other way of "removing HP washing" was met with pretty strong resistance.)
     
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