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Cancels Changes

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by HimeHam, Feb 14, 2023.

What do you think of Cancels?

  1. Keep them as is!

    7 vote(s)
    24.1%
  2. Delete them!

    11 vote(s)
    37.9%
  3. Change them to 75% Damage Reduction

    10 vote(s)
    34.5%
  4. 75% Damage Reduction is still too much!

    1 vote(s)
    3.4%
  1. HimeHam
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    HimeHam Pac Pinky

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    Weapon and Magic Cancels. We all hate them. If you don't hate Weapon cancels, you're probably a Mage, and if you enjoy Magic Cancels you're probably a Weapon Attacker.

    Most people can agree that Cancels are the single worst boss mechanic ever invented in gaming history. All it really does is waste peoples time and make bosses feel tankier.

    Bossfights in this game take a LONG time. I just had my first HT run as a Bishop a few days ago and for me it felt really intense! I just had no idea it would go on as long as it did. I suppose it'll get faster as I improve as a Bishop and as the people I run with get more consistent, but I start to wonder how much of the time spent in there was Waiting for cancels to be over.

    Let's talk about a boss I have more experience with, Zakum. When he's not in a Weapon cancel it's actually pretty amazing how fast his HP bar will drain, but everytime he Weapon cancels he subtracts 30 seconds from your life that you can never get back. In HT people can just attack a different head or something, but in Zakum you just sit around and count 30 seconds.


    It feels weird to call anything surrounding this mechanic "Depth" but for lack of a better word let's talk about the depth of this mechanic.

    During Zakum's Weapon Cancel a Corsair might take time to summon Octopi, and might choose not to summon them outside of cancels in fear that Zakum might Weapon Cancel and waste the potential Damage that the Octopus might have done.
    During the cancel Shadowers might charge Assassinate. Other classes might have charge moves to build up as well. Perhaps it's a good time to build Buccaneer charge for example.
    A Weapon cancel is a good chance for Dark Knights to come back from Brazil and rebuff the attackers and Bishop with Hyper Body.

    When Zakum Magic cancels it means he cannot Weapon Cancel for at least 30 seconds.
    This gives Corsairs another chance to spawn Octopi without fear of a Weapon Cancel ruining their potential Damage.
    This is also a great time for Bishops to Holy Shield or for Shadowers to cast Smoke.
    Buccaneers can Super Transform without worrying about Zakum wasting it.
    The list goes on, but you get the Idea.


    All of this "Tech" is things the playerbase has come up with in order to play around such a mechanic, and if there are to be changes done to Cancels I don't want to lose any of this. This "Tech" is an example of the fortitude of the playerbase. We all understand that Cancels are a shitty mechanic, but instead of whining (there is a fair bit of whining actually) about it we put our heads together and found a way to navigate it the best we could. And that's beautiful. That's Nostalgic. I would never want to ruin that.

    Anyways onto my suggestion.

    I think instead of Cancels being a 100% Resistance to a specific damage type they should be 75% Resistance to a specific damage type.

    This change still maintains almost all of the "Tech" I described here, with some exceptions. If this change would ruin something for you, feel free to share. Meme responses are welcome too! :heartbeat:
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. SinclairJ
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    SinclairJ Master Chronos

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    Tbh there's 2 routes I see, old maple is a simple game and in a way thats the charm, but some skills/mechanics had so much potential that are just so laughably bad.

    -Letting, say, 3rd job warriors use their crashes to cancel with a cooldown
    It adds a bit of depth, makes them a more valuable member of a party, and depending on how frequent weapon cancels occur the mechanic would still be a pain here and there and thus keep some of these work-arounds you mentioned around, which personally I also think is great because the idea of just holding down a key for 90 minutes is a incredibly dull concept to me.
    Thought about that one plenty before, and in (my) opinion it would still be somewhat fitting to have that in the game, but on the flipside I think there's a limit to how much tweaking can be done to skills before the game becomes "too" custom. ML's skill tweaks are in a very comfortable spot imo, but everyone is going to have a different opinion in what can fly and what cant. Random example being marksman strafe 4>5hit change, I love it. Yet, as sosmeone who enjoys sound queues/visuals/bgms/class feel yadayada I would also completely understand if suddenly having a extra arrow in there feels odd, imagine if nightlords threw 5 or 7 stars for example it could feel really odd to some.

    I think reducing it to 75% or so is also good, and here I think moreso about areas like gobys where its just annoying if you cant deal with it. If there was still some damage to be done it may not be efficient to keep attacking, but its much less of a headache. It leaves the choice up to the player to decide wether theyd want to optimize for DPM, comfort, etc. Some breathing room for classes to set up is quite nice to have and if I were a shadower I woulnd't mind getting to drop a few bags and charging for some big hits.

    Either way, i'd love such changes myself
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. OP
    OP
    HimeHam
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    HimeHam Pac Pinky

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    I've seen this Idea circle around and I honestly like it a lot. Bosses like Pianus will spam one type of Cancel until the end of time, but having a way to remove it even on a cooldown has the capability to flip which cancel gets spammed. It also gives another QOL to bringing a warrior onto a run; which people will argue it's mulable, but once enough of these things added up, and their damage gets a buff I think they could become an important part of a bossing party again. I wonder how long the cooldown would be, and if people would make 3-4 crash mules just to have 0% Cancel uptime.
     
  4. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    The idea of use warrior crash for remove weapon/magic cancel just make warrior mulable (just see our neighbor r0yals)
    I think it can be a good suggestion, but need to find a number to be fair
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Zorele
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    Zorele Slimy

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    As much as we all hate weapon cancel at the end of the day, removing or working around it (making it 75%) would further diminish the potential to balance classes around certain niches. What I mean by this is that it's already a big struggle to fit in every class in a way that makes sense in terms of balance. Mechanics like DR and Wep cancel for example could serve the purpose of allowing a class like shadower to be good at bosses that includes those (That would be if their base damage wasnt as low as it is and allowing them to top bosses with those mechanics present).

    All in all, I think removing certain game mechanics in favor of making the gameplay experience more rewarding would make balancing the game way harder than it already is. The whole idea of balancing classes in prebb maple has to be around their ability to excel at certain scenarios for example paladin on elemental weakness, Corsair on low chaos/dummy bosses, marksman in PB body (due to snipe), heroes/dk in cleave (if that existed) and classes like BM and NL just be good overall despite the scenario. Removing any of the scenarios where you could capitalize on for balancing is sadly unhealthy for the game in my opinion ( as much as we all hate wep cancel)
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  6. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    The change would also reduce the difficulty of various boss runs by reducing the effective HP of many bosses - which has some implications given that bosses are a source of chaos and white scrolls.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  7. Zorele
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    Zorele Slimy

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    I wouldnt be surprised if it opened up the possibility of 3-4 man HT attacking squads without the uses of apples (Unless it's already possible and I'm simply unaware).
     
    • Creative Creative x 1
  8. Snork
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    Snork Capt. Latanica

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    please just remove them and buff boss hp where necessary
     
  9. fael
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    fael Headless Horseman

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    SURRA guild aka the biggest on server is recruiting Brazilian people to the family

    Jokes aside, I would like to see kind of mechanic to remove the weapon/magic cancels. I think there was something like this on CPQ, but Im not quite sure because I dont remember.

    But my idea was something like: after a weapon cancel is casted, you can break 4 pillars to remove it. So your party would need to move around the map (and that's something that can be optimized depending on your squad) to break the pillars and start killing the boss again.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    Meme reply: Weapon Cancel is a nice window for being able to rebuff and chat
    Slightly less meme reply: Weapon Cancels do add a certain level of depth to HT in deciding where to prioritize damage

    That being said, I think people are overestimating the frustration reduction in lowering Cancels from 100% reduction to 75% reduction. At the end of the day, our simple lizard brains will still categorize 75% damage reduction and 100% damage reduction as the same sensation of reduced agency, leading to frustration.

    Generally you'll see in "good" game design the player presented with a choice, where making a good choice is rewarded with increased agency. In old school Maple, many of the "choices" presented to players tend to be both hamfisted and binary, where good choices mean you can play the game as normal and poor choices mean you get to do nothing. There is actually surprisingly few decisions that a player will ever be faced with that actually reward the player with increased agency (notable examples generally revolve around abilities with cooldowns, such as ST, TL, Concentrate, etc) and none of them involve fight mechanics besides Core Blaze's chandelier (which, granted, is actually a pretty unique addition to the game) and elemental weaknesses (which tends to be a set it and forget it decision).

    Most modern day RPGs, even single player ones, seem to have learned this lesson that players generally respond better to positive reinforcement rather than negative reinforcement; it's hard to think of a game that doesn't have some form of "the boss's armor is exposed! hit it really hard while it's vulnerable" that lets the player go big dick mode. Mechanics like these feel incredibly good to the player, as they're temporarily empowered with a level of agency that is noticeably higher than normal, whereas mechanics like old school Maple's will reward the player for hitting the Magic Cancelled target with... normal damage. There's little reward for the player to be doing the correct thing, such as hitting the Horntail Head that isn't Weapon Cancelled, but a lot of punishment for doing the wrong thing such as hitting the target that's Weapon Cancelled. Increased agency = dopamine, decreased agency = frustration.

    While I don't disagree that Cancels are overall a pretty lame effect, one also has to wonder to what degree we're actually willing to tolerate the overall design philosophy that old school Maple seems to embody. There's so many examples in the game of just... un-fun boss mechanics, but very few boss fights that people will laud as well designed and "fun". You might be able to take out Cancels from boss fights, but you'd be hard pressed to fully remove what they represent from the game, and I'd be surprised if lowering Cancel reduction from 100% to 75% made a noticeable difference in player enjoyment of content in the long term after the initial "wow this old thing we hated is gone" phase wears off. At the end of the day, I'd imagine most of us aren't here for well designed fights anyways, and getting into overly custom changes (HP thresholds would have to be attuned to account for the new lack of 100% damage reduction) without a strongly guaranteed payoff is a big risk when developer time is so valuable.

    While I would love to live in a world where some of the more barbaric designs in this game could be replaced with more modern practices, if I wanted better game design that badly I'd probably just play one of said modern games.

    Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. OP
    OP
    HimeHam
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    HimeHam Pac Pinky

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    I can completely agree here. This would absolutely be an unintended side effect. Removing cancels sounds good on paper but this is the exact problem I'm trying to tackle with the 75% reduction. I think it still leaves the mechanic in place and allows the staff team to balance around it. It absolutely reduces the impact of these balance changes, but I think the benefits outweigh the negatives personally.


    I don't personally see the problem with this. In my opinion bossing content SHOULD be the most profitable, and I think in many cases it currently IS the most profitable. I suppose a nerf to boss rewards isn't something the playerbase would want, so I won't even suggest that for a second. I do wonder the actual effects on the economy of an effective HP reduction on all bosses that cancel though. The 2 entry limit can be worked around by having many characters so farming of bosses like HT might increase, and your average player might see the value of their HT drops decrease, but for the extra QOL and the reduced run time I think it's worth it to your average player. I'm curious what more experienced HT runners and market watchers would think of it though!


    I think I saw this post before I made mine. I like the Idea a lot, but I wonder if this would make killing Bosses solo a lot harder. Not to mention it would be a lot of coding for the staff team, and they would likely need to make custom sprites to match the aesthetics of each boss. It still gives agency back to the player though! Great food for thought!


    I'm personally of the opinion that our bossfights on this server take too long. This is grounds for discussion among the community, but I think that the challenge of a bossfight is in being able to survive it, and players continue to hold their attacks buttons down in the bossfight long after they prove they can survive in a lot of cases. The only issues I see with reducing effective HP of bosses is Nostalgia reasons, and buffing bosses that already have amazing time:meso rewards. As for long term player enjoyment, I think people might not be completely happy with the issue, but it still gives players something to do in these moments, and I think people would be grateful for it. I suppose nobody here expects the bossfights to be well designed, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't appreciate it if they were better made I think.


    Removing them and buffing boss HP can raise issues relating to the DPS differences of different parties. No matter how strong your party is the weapon cancel will reflect the same amount of timeloss. If we remove them entirely and buff HP pools to keep bossfights the same length what DPM would we balance it around? A party that can kill Zakum in 30 minutes would encounter much less cancels than a party that can kill him in 45. This change would give staff a lot to do and it seems they already don't have enough staffpower to get everything out. The 75% damage reduction suggestion I will admit is a bit of a Bandaid fix of a bigger issue, but I think it addresses a lot of concerns regarding the issue without removing any mechanics from an already sparse game.


    Thanks for the replies everybody! I'm beginning to see the holes in my suggestion and I'm learning a lot about the game by having these discussions! Keep them coming!happymush
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. twing1
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    twing1 Pink Teddy

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    What about merging these 2 routes?

    Ex/ weapon/magic cancel reduced to 75% damage reduction, down from 100%.

    Hero "armor crash" further reduces weapon cancel to 50% damage reduction, down from 75%.

    Paladin "magic crash" further reduces magic cancel to 50% damage reduction, down from 75%.

    Dk "power crash" doesn't affect cancels, as they already provide extreme group utility in "hyper body".

    If we wanna go a step further, I'd like to see bishop's "dispel" reduced to a defensive support skill that only clears enemy placed debuffs on teammates (and not enemy buffs like attack/defense up, or weappn/magic cancel) to make way for the 3rd job warrior crashes to become the primary means of taking away enemy buffs.
     
    • Creative Creative x 1
  13. OP
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    HimeHam
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    HimeHam Pac Pinky

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    I like the idea that the crashes wouldn't remove cancels entirely like a lot of people suggested but instead reduce the damage reduction by some % That's a cool interaction. I'm against taking away Bishop's usefulness in bossing though as they already have a hard time finding niches that can't be muled.
     
  14. bienfu
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    bienfu Pac Pinky

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    Remove weapon cancels entirely and replace them with stronger Atk/Def power ups that would need warriors to crash.

    That or make mages stronger attackers so that it could be worth it to bring a mage to bosses during those shitty weapon cancel events.

    Cancels where you can do nothing about but sit around or what is the most braindead and pointless mechanic in existence.
     
  15. Tarnished
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    Tarnished Selkie Jr.

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    Weapon / Magic cancel is an equality mechanic, it makes it so people who deal twice the damage of other players do not straight up kill bosses twice as fast.


    Removing it without an adequate replacement would significantly increase the wealth gap which is already pretty severe in ML, not to mention cleavers would become even more of a meme

    Core Blaze miniboss’s chandelier mechanic is a good example of a weapon cancel alternative that’s interactive and skill based. (Every so often, a chandelier spawns and you can drop it on the boss to do a bajillion damage. The boss is too tanky to kill without chandalier drops). Not only is the wealth disparity bridged because most damage output comes from the chandalier, cleavers are given an explicit purpose where usually they are the ones who force the boss to stand under the chandelier and walk to dangerous places that ranged can’t go
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  16. OP
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    HimeHam
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    HimeHam Pac Pinky

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    I agree! I just wish it was toned down a little.
     
  17. Swesticer
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    Swesticer Orange Mushroom

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    The problem with cancels overall on bosses where you have nothing else to attack is that you rebuff for 5sec and then just sit n wait 25sec, its just straight up boring and I think everyone having experienced a thirdbody zak Weaponcancel 10+times feel the same.

    Dont change the 30sec cancel itself but make the gameplay a bit more active! Lets say having a "switch" spawn somewhere on the map, forcing the whole team to go hit it x amount of times to remove the cancel and be able to save like 10sec of canceltime.
     
  18. OP
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    HimeHam
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    HimeHam Pac Pinky

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    I remember on some other post somewhere somebody suggested as a meme that you'd complete a captcha to remove the cancel. This idea lives rent free in my head now.
     

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