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Dragon Blood Improvement!

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Buttery Bear, Jul 29, 2019.

  1. Buttery Bear
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    Buttery Bear Orange Mushroom

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    ButterBear
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    The main reason DK's don't even bother putting points into this skill is because:
    1. it costs HP and MP to use.
    2. There's much better ways to get attack buffs than a measly 12, which doesn't stack

    So I thought that a great way to make this skill feasible again would be to just make it able to stack with all other attack buffs!
    If you're going to bother leveling up a skill, If the skill costs HP and MP, then it should be worth the price!
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  2. Fishy
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    Fishy Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Hex beholder gives you +15atk buff in 4th job.
    you can also buy coke pills which give you +15atk as well.

    Magic crash > dragon blood is more useful now, since bosses like HT + CWKPQ bosses + zak arms has the attackUP buff, you can dispel it now. I would move on from dragon blood and not increase it anymore. if so, use SP resets and take points out of it.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. OP
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    Buttery Bear
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    Buttery Bear Orange Mushroom

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    I said make Dragon Blood feasible. I already said there are better alternatives to Dragon Blood. You even seem to agree that Dragon Blood is useless. Not everyone is interested in bossing. I certainly am not, especially since I'm pure-PA. You know what would be far more useful than Magic Crash's situational use? A Dragon Blood that you can use at all times. And making it able to blend with other attack buffs wouldn't take much work. Make all skills useful so you actually have a choice in how you want to build.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Dvah
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    No? magic crash is useless unless it will cancel the immune skill of the mob dunno the name of it? Weapon attack guard whatever
     
  5. Fishy
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    Fishy Skelegon Retired Staff

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    its called AttackUP buff. its the sword on the mobs head. CWKPQ boss does double the damage cuz of that crap. the one you are talking about is called "total crash" byt pallys.

    cant tell me its useless when i know numerous people who use magic crash lol. please get off my comments, every time i comment you just send negativeness.
     
  6. Fishy
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    Fishy Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Beholder gives a +15atk buff every 20secs. so they skill would override dragon blood. if you make dragon blood stack with other attack buffs. thats way too OP imo. thats permanently +27atk buff for DKs, if you also use a party bear (+20atk + 12atk Dblood, thats +32atk, thats more OP) , which is a big jump. Magic crash can be used on specific mobs as well. (skeles for example has attackUP) a few other mobs too.

    only pro i see out of dragon blood is saving mesos from buying other attack pots
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  7. Dvah
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    Dvah Pac Pinky

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    you’re wrong,you won’t always have onyx or pills or even poor heartstoppers so the dragon blood is there for you,also about hb,you not always will get hb so that why people are hp washing... pls if you don’t support dragon blood to stack get off from this thread.

    Funny thing people wants to buff your lv 200 char And yet you say no,I’ve never seen a guy like you on the internet pro players who gets buff for their fav weapon,hero,class or whatever just blessing the Devos and say thanks a lot but there is a guy like you who decide to say no which is kinda funny,you main drk and you don’t wanna get that buff well shame on you,you betray your own kind
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
  8. Fishy
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    Fishy Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Because a +12 atk buff that stacks is unfair for only one class, Where is the other classes stacked buffs? That just makes DKs stronger than they already are. Also, I’m pretty sure, the only buff that stacks with other atk buffs/pots is Echo buff. No other atk buffs stack. Like I said, beholder gives you +15atk buff every 20secs.

    The HB conversation is irrelevant to this post. And actually, I didn’t betray my own class. I’ve asked about certain buffs, such as Beholder Hex working properly / Zerk % threshold being increased.
     
    • Creative Creative x 1
  9. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Dark Knights don't really need any changes, or maybe small ones at best. I do similar damage to people with similar levels of gear, but that's not very important because I enjoy playing a Dark Knight and probably would regardless of a buff. PA only isn't completely terrible, but at the same time we can't really buff every DK because of the choices that a couple of them have made. It would lead to an imbalance and an extra 12 attack would probably make Dark Knights better than Heroes in almost every way, except for at Toad or some other very hard hitting bosses.

    It's an absolute falsehood to say that because a person doesn't want buffs, they're betraying their class. But to continuously demand buffs for everything and to demand overpowered content be released does betray the very principles that this server was built on. It's an old-school server, without all of the incredibly overpowered nonsense Neckson released and continued to release until the Big Bang happened and the game was unrecognizable from what it was 5 years beforehand. Anyone who has thought about game design understands that powercreep is an alienating feeling in a game and the very best developers are able to fit things in without making a lot of past content outdated. If a game is balanced right then it adds upon old content without replacing it, and opening the way for different niches to become available. That's why adding something like VIP weapons is an incredibly stupid idea, a dexless claw with 64 attack clean would absolutely break every Night Lord's build up to that point. There'd be no point to optimizing dex gear. All of the perfect weapons created up to that point would be outperformed by a VIP weapon with 4+ 10%/30% scrolls. It would break the game and make it so that all of the work people had put in until that point was for nothing.

    Giving Dark Knights 12 more attack isn't that important. They're mostly balanced I've found. They fill a role and have a unique playstyle, which has made it quite fun. They aren't massively behind other classes when it comes to DPM, but they are probably slightly worse than the other warriors, but that's acceptable with HB.

    I'm not against buffs. At the same time I'm not against nerfs either. What I'm for is a balanced game that remains rewarding and fun, where there aren't any truly "bad" choices for what to do. Classes should remain unique and fun, without one of them drastically overpowering the rest. That's why Shadowers could probably use the biggest buff, especially to Assassinate so they can do more than a few million DPM in single target. It's also why the afkness of Shaolin ought to be gotten rid of, and why Mannequins could probably use a 5-10% decrease in exp. If stuff like that is done, then the game would feel more balanced, and overall more fun to play.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  10. aaronis
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    aaronis Slimy

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    Every class has useless skills. No real reason to buff a useless skill for just one class, especially such a huge buff like a free 12 attack when late in the game more 12 more attack costs billions of mesos. Dks do decent damage already and are in 95% of boss runs so it’s not like they’re in a bad state.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  11. OP
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    Buttery Bear
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    Well, it's not free. Any skill you want to use costs SP, and the skill itself costs HP and MP. What I'm asking is to make it worth that price.
    If other classes have useless skills, I recommend you make suggestions to improving them. I only know DK, so I'm only making DK recommendations. Just because everyone has useless skills doesn't justify them being useless.If the amount of attack bugs you so much, offer a better solution.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
  12. OP
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    Buttery Bear
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    I'm not asking for an outright buff. I'm asking for a tweak in how the skill operates to make it worth using. If it is thought to be too much to give DKs +15 atk (For a skill the paid with skill points, and HP and MP.) then you can nerf the skill, but I just want the skill to be worth using, as any other skill should.

    The server isn't perfect, and as it is, it's not even balanced. We can make improvements to it while keeping the spirit of what people joined for. Instead of sitting stagnant, I look to make things better. I'm not asking to buff everyone to the insane degree GMS has become, but to make a very, very small change, in the grand scheme of things. Making Dragon Blood able to compound with all other buffs is hardly gamebreaking and I think you're overestimating its effect.

    If my solution doesn't meet your standards, offer a better solution, instead of saying "Not at all!" As of right now, nobody uses it, and if nobody's using it, that's just as bad as not having the skill at all. Improve it to make it feasible. If ultimately you don't care either way, then give it to someone who does.
     
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  13. OP
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    Buttery Bear
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    Beholder is a 4th job skill. Dragon Blood is a 3rd job skill. Don't conflate the 2.
    You pay for these skills using SP, and Dragon Blood has an even higher price, being that it requires HP and MP.
    Party bear is also irrelevant to the conversation considering it's available to everyone.

    Beholder is a 4th job skill. Dragon Blood is a 3rd job skill. Don't conflate the 2.
    It's not like the skill is coming from nowhere, free buff. You pay for these skills using SP, and Dragon Blood has an even higher price, being that it requires HP and MP. I simply want the skill to be worth using. If you think it's too much, then you can reduce the attack given, or you can increase the price being paid to make it balanced. But being resigned to keeping the skill absolutely useless isn't a solution to my proposition.
    Party bear is also irrelevant to the conversation considering it's available to everyone.
     
  14. MrPresident
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    MrPresident Capt. Latanica

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    Have to agree with the other folks that dragon blood doesn't need a buff to stack with other attack boosts. IMO drk are in a pretty good place now since zerk got buffed to 55% making ginseng roots more usable. My only complaint with the class is that I would like more HP potion variety so we can heal differently based on what we're fighting. Right now I only use ginseng roots and that's not a great potion to use at some places for keeping zerk up 100%. Would prefer to have the option to use 20% 25% or 30% pots.
     
  15. OP
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    Buttery Bear
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    Buttery Bear Orange Mushroom

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    If nobody bothers to put points into the skill, then that's a problem and I'd like to fix that.
     
  16. Zooploop
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    Zooploop Master Chronos

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    Why would that make it irrelevant when your proposition is to make the buff stack? Since multiple people can party bear that means you'll have the 32 attack even more frequently. I think you're severely underestimating the value of 12 attack. Dark Knights already have comparable DPS to other warrior classes and are a guaranteed slot for bossing, why buff their damage to the same level?

    No matter what you want to suggest, a stacking attack buff is just never going to happen. The most realistic suggestion would be to make Dragon Blood 18 ATK, but realize going over all the classes making one of many "useless" skills viable isn't top priority. Less so when it's not a skill designed to be used end game in the first place. There's as good a chance of Shield Mastery being buffed as Dragon Blood.
     
  17. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    In principle you could be correct that every skill should be somewhat useful, but the reality is that every single class in the game has a few skills that are completely useless. I'll just list a few for the classes I'm familiar with.

    Magicians:
    Magic Armour - Completely useless
    Energy Bolt - Outclassed by Magic claw during 1st job and completely useless
    Seal - Completely useless
    Element Composition - Completely useless
    Big Bang - Completely Useless
    Mana Reflection - Completely useless
    Doom - Completely useless

    Archers:
    Arrow blow - Outclassed by double sh0t during 1st job and useless
    Final Attack - Completely useless (same with all the other final attacks for warriors)
    Blind - Completely useless

    There are many more useless skills for the remaining classes, but I'm not going to bother listing them. Because there are so many useless skills in the game, its impractical to suggest that we should buff a skill purely because it is useless. More importantly, we have to consider the overall balance effects of the buff in question. The people above probably don't disagree with you that dragon blood is a pretty useless skill, but rather that the uselessness of the skill on its own does not justify a buff.
     
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  18. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Pick one.

    Or just move the goalposts entirely. Getting 12 more attack currently would cost me many billions of mesos. Overall I believe it would add around 300-400k to my single target DPM and 900k-1.2mil DPM to my cleave damage. It would make Dark Knights the single best cleavers in the game. I'm not weak. None of my other lategame Dark Knight brethren are either. We all do really well in bosses, and are usually accepted among parties. Where we are right now is balanced among the rest of the cleavers. Your opinion lacks credibility because by the sound of it you lack enough experience to know exactly what an extra 12 attack would do to a person's DPM, especially at the end game.

    The GMs have lives of their own. I don't think they should be wasting their time worrying about Dragon Blood when there are a dozen other things on their list of things to do first. The least of their problems is a 3rd job skill that gets replaced by the end game by a better buff, or if you are smart a pill that costs 3k, lasts 15 minutes, and stacks to 100. They're working on tweaking many skills and it's made a lot of classes more viable during all periods of play. Currently I consider Dragon Knights in the 3rd job to be the 3rd fastest levelers out of everyone, just behind F/P and CBs. They can grind incredibly fast, in many different ways, make a ton of money, and have no real need of 12 more attack during that period. Get some more characters to 4th job and you'll see that Dragon Knights don't need to be improved upon, from 70 to 120 they are machines.

    If you want an actual solution into giving the skill some nuance then change it from 12 attack to 20 attack, like they had done with rage. It would also mean the devs don't have to spend much of their time completely reworking the buff system to make you happy with a currently dead skill. If it were 20 attack then it'd still be a pass from 99% of DKs but would be very welcome among people who don't want to do mixed training and also doesn't care about bossing with Power Crash.
     
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  19. OP
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    Buttery Bear
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    Buttery Bear Orange Mushroom

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    When I'm in 3rd job, I'm unaffected by 4th job skills. Or are skills only relevant when thinking in terms of end-game? (I don't think so.) Also, why is everyone's argument hinging on a class's bossing capability? If that's the case, then I, as a Polearm DK, could definitely benefit from a buff as balancing (Though, that's not even what I'm asking.) This also helps one able to compete with hybrids, who use all of their SP on skills they intend to use. I want to afford that opportunity to everyone.

    There are many ways of changing Dragon Blood to make it viable, as well as balanced. Increasing the price paid to use it being one. Decreasing the amount of attack given may be another.
    What makes it impractical? What do you think the purpose of this forum is? Problems exist and we look to solve them. It's not impossible, nor is it such a massive issue that cannot be solved. Or should we just ignore all the problems because it's just too impractical too address them?
    Nobody said this issue was top priority, I just want it to be addressed. I'm not demanding these skills be fixed at once. Just because an issue isn't priority #1 doesn't justify throwing the case away.. Making all useless skills actually useful sounds like an all-around benefit to me.
     
  20. OP
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    Buttery Bear
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    There was no discrepancy.



    The goalpost wasn't moved. You're reading into something that's not there.
    Good for you? Not sure why you're gloating. Also, I think you're entirely missing the point of my post. It's to make the skill Dragon Blood feasible. Making it stack with all other attack buffs is a solution. A problem that arises is that 12 attack may be too much, and that's fine, so then we can further improve it by adding stipulations. Such as decreasing the amount buffed or increasing the price being paid to use said skill.

    Jeez what a non sequitur. I am pointing out an issue that I've experienced and offering my own solution how to fix it. I am not calling for all GMs to stop the presses to address my problem. I never said I wanted it fixed NOW. It's just something to consider. Ultimately it's up to them to decide whether an issue is worth working on and it's not killing anyone to read my proposition.

    Finally, an actual solution. That may work. and I WOULD like that more than what we have now. Like I've said countless times, the purpose of this is to make Dragon Blood actually viable. That's all I want.
     

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