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Lets talk about nightlords...

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by WackyWarlock, Sep 11, 2023.

Should nightlords carry the financial burden of the server?

  1. Yes

    52 vote(s)
    82.5%
  2. No

    11 vote(s)
    17.5%
  1. WackyWarlock
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    WackyWarlock Stone Golem

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    10:26 PM
    WackyWarlock
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    I believe the star recharge cost is way too high and should be reverted. Why should nightlords be the only class that has such a high cost to play? Just because they do the most single target dpm? -(which isn't always true) That does not seem right. Nightlords are dependent on SE and are mediocre on their own. Other classes can stand on their own without buffs from others and still do comparable dpm to nighlords (or sometimes better).

    While I agree it is an effective meso sink I think the recharge cost change was very misguided. Instead of making it more expensive for nightlords (and corsairs) recharge why not nerf meso up to make it a self only buff? - or even better target the classes that are actually generating mesos.

    This change has a negative effect on both new and end game players. I created a opq/lpq mule assassins for fun and attempted to level them without any funding. At first it started out ok but after some stranger donated me some ilibis I found myself running out of mesos and not being able to afford recharging them. I then had to make the decision of wanting to do more damage and go broke or use subis and do significantly less damage - no other class needs to make decisions like this. This is also why I stopped card hunting on my nightlord. I was losing millions of mesos for little gain. We should be able to do content outside of bossing without worry of going bankrupt.

    if the argument is to balance the fact that they get hit less due to shadow shifter etc then why is it that
    -a buccaneer can grind and boss using almost no potions at all since they have both a self mp recovery and self hp recovery skill as well as extremely op invulnerability frames. If played perfectly a buccaneer could theoretically use 0 potions doing any content.
    -shadowers have higher avoid and did not get nerfed at all -why not nerf meso guard to make it cost 80x more per hit?


    This concludes the main purpose of this thread but I would like to comment on the recent change to alchemy. The purpose of the increased buff duration on this skill is because nightlords inventories are clogged heavily with throwing stars and do not have a ton of space for att pots -specifically ciders. Before the buff you could only carry one per slot so it is not as much of an issue now that it has been increased to 3 but I still believe that perhaps an added effect of alchemy could be to allow nighlords to hold more ciders per stack?
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
    • Like Like x 2
    • Creative Creative x 1
  2. brunandes
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    brunandes Windraider

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    All early game and mid game NLs paying for the sins of endgame NLs excelling at one boss.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  3. Endorphinss
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    Endorphinss Mixed Golem

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    Endorphins
    Let's talk about NLs:
    They are good
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
  4. Mirrors
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    Mirrors Zakum Retired Staff

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    Actually I think I like the suggestion of Meso Up to be only a self buff lol. Pickpocket works similarly in that it's a self buff, so I guess it'd be the same as their shadower brethren. It'd also help hermits grind during third job.

    I understand where you're coming from, but how have Corsairs been handling this all this time? Do they need fewer Bullets? Other classes might also need more pots than NLs, so their slots get taken up by pots instead of stars.

    Maybe archers to a lesser extent, but they have Concentrate and Soul Arrow so I guess they don't NEED to have arrows in the inventory.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. OP
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    WackyWarlock
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    WackyWarlock Stone Golem

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    Corsairs can hold way more bullets per stack and use less per attack -but yes I suppose it could be an issue for them as well.
     
  6. Isomeride
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    Isomeride King Slime

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    3:26 AM
    I second on the part of the star recharging cost, but it is more like a transparency issue as new players would not know that the star recharging cost has been modified up significantly vs. the old GMS. The excitement of buying the first steely/ilbis w/ most of your savings would be quickly drenched by the cold reality that you could not afford to use it.

    I was also one of the noobs who rushed to buy a steely/illbis that I could not afford back in the old days, only to find out that the recharging cost would bankrupt me. I almost churned but I got lucky in one gachapon draw.

    A solution might be some kind of notice to new players, maybe during their 1st job advancement that recharging cost is DIFFERENT in this server.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  7. theducel
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    theducel Red Snail

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    No need to talk about NLs, they already talk about themselves enough..

    Stop comparing NLs to melee classes like shadowers and buccs, there's a lot to break down about your points about them but let's focus on your quote:
    "If played perfectly a buccaneer could theoretically use 0 potions".
    Buccs need to focus and play the actual game, shads need to constantly re-MG themselves and use smoke, while NLs just sleep on the keyboard and demand SE.
    Furthermore, Buccs are heavily dependent on using Transformation and Shads don't have THAT much more avoid than NLs since they have to invest in DEX and STR as well.

    Everyone who plays this game knows NLs are a class that needs heavy funding, idk why the constant whining about it, it only seems fair as all other classes struggle in various other ways.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
  8. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    shadow partner and shadow stars are also self buff, just like MG.
    while the class seems afk, due to more players afking on it, it is actually not as afk as other classes.
    At PB, nobody AFKs because of DRs and seds
    AT HT, NLs, like all ranged classes can be knocked off the platform. Why does other ranged classes not get criticised for AFK gameplay? I seen a marksman fall of the top left platform umpteen times.
    Buccs, if they dont do that barrel macro, are largely afk too.
    Shads afk as well. Sed mules are already surviving themselves with little attention. what more a real shad with high avoid?
    At Zak, everybody afks except the bishop. U tell me that hero or paladin isnt afk? when skill lock happens, most people dont even acp, waiting for the bsp to dispel for them.
    At cwk, most NLs are assigned mage duty, which involves using a second client, a bsp or priest to dispel. How is that afk? In fact, cleave classes and BMs are the most afk ones in cwk.

    So tell me, are NLs easy targets for criticism and jealousy?
    AFK gameplay->blame NL, but hero/pally, BM,sairs do the same most of the time
    Use little pots->blame NL, but buccs and shads use lesser
    no dmg-> blame NL

    Just doesnt mean that u seen toxic NLs means that the class should be treated as such.
    #NLlivesmatter
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Endorphinss
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    Endorphinss Mixed Golem

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    in zak warriors need to pay attention to pole attacks and rush to body or else we will be stunned all the time
    in cwk cleaves need to deal with 3 bosses that mostly cant be pinned without using rush, and kill raids of mobs that spawn frequently

    not so afk :)
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  10. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    I think OP made a very good point.
    it has already showed that other classes can outdpm or match NLs with equal/lesser gears
    1) shads on bosses that dont require them fall off a platform, e.g. pb body, zak.
    2) mm on pb body, since damage reduction does not affect snipe, i.e. snipe does 200k dmg per hit, while other attackers get their lines halved.
    3) corsairs/BMs/MMs on bosses which don't retaliate often, e.g. core blaze, bigfoot, BGA, krex, nameless.
    4) buccs when they are not saddled with TL/SI/pin duties, e.g. HT left n middle heads
    5) paladin with full body tank on PB or bosses with elemental weaknesses.

    It is just that most end game top tier players choose to put their mesos in NL gear.
    Do you know that a full MM+Bucc PB is doable? Just that there aren't 15~20 marksman that run together yet.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2023
  11. TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    i played a hero as well and i beg to differ.
    zak i would body tank.
    cwk is obviously afk for a good 15mins before spawns. and after dealing with summons, its back to afk again.
     
  12. OP
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    WackyWarlock
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    WackyWarlock Stone Golem

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    No class is truly afk. Just because it looks easier doesn't mean it is. If nl does not pay attention shadow partner/booster/shadow stars will run out. Nls have to pin the mage in cwk. And as far as dealing with multiple mobs that is your job as cleave- it's what your class is built for...
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2023
  13. theducel
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    theducel Red Snail

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    As I said before, yall like to compare yourselves with melee classes that struggle way differently, MG =!= SP, one's survival, other's dmg.
    Additionally, shads/buccs/warriors have to re-position themselves with lesser to no movement buffs like NLs, few are the bosses NLs really have to re-position after getting hit.
    All classes have some kinda "afk gameplay" depending on the content (I'm looking at you, heroes), but NLs have exceptionally high avoid, range, low pot usage and high dmg output.
    All the other classes you mentioned do other things even when doing "afk content", shads smoke and use DS during WC, buccs and archers have to time their transformation/concentrate correctly.

    NLs are rightfully nerfed and imo not enough, just like mages have their drop rate rightfully nerfed.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  14. Mirrors
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    Mirrors Zakum Retired Staff

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    Also aren't BM literally going down, re-puppeting and making sure pirate doesn't lose aggro and run around? I feel like pinning pirate and managing puppet is pretty difficult no?...

    Imo No one is really shitting on shads for afk gameplay because:
    • At the end of the day we are still melee. We are constantly touching body or right next to it. We can't stay far away and avoid most attacks like NLs can, or jump away quickly with FJ to avoid attacks
    • Despite our tankiness, if the boss can dispel, we are paying VERY close attention since our HP pool depends on it, especially if you don't have enough HP with MG off
    • Speaking of Meso guard, it literally only lasts 1 min and 30 seconds and we have to rebuff or else we will die lol
    • Our single target damage is not comparable to NL single target damage most of the time. (It is still respectable after the assassinate buffs though!)
    • Need to pay attention to cancels and time smokescreen properly, and make sure it covers the whole party (every 5 minutes tho)
      • I get clowned on if I smoke during a weapon cancel
    For things like watching YouTube during boss runs, for me it's because I've been playing shad for literal years and my HP is higher (10k), I usually only do this in bosses that don't dispel like krex. I do pay more attention in HT and Dunas2!
     
  15. Raso
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    Raso Slimy Retired Staff

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    Ok this is alot of text so Im gonna try to do it one by one.

    "Why should nightlords be the only class that has such a high cost to play?" "Nightlords are dependent on SE and are mediocre on their own. Other classes can stand on their own without buffs from others and still do comparable dpm to nighlords (or sometimes better)."
    So first of all, are they actually that high cost to play? The answer is no. If you want to be the top NL then ofcourse its going to be expensive af, and that goes for every class. The real issue with "expensive" here is that the main cost is in getting the top 1-2 star types and ofcourse the OP gear. You dont need OP gear or those top 2 star types to play and do content, but ofcourse it would help the DPM. Regardless, apart from the MTKs, and to some extent the BFs, all of the NL gear prices are mostly if not entirely set by what the community wants to pay for it. Just because NL players are generally willing to pay more, doesnt mean theyre at a major disadvantage compared to classes that dont let their prices hike so much.
    Gear aside, the pot and recharge costs are ridiculously low compared to our melee brethren. Try maining a warrior, you'll cry by the potcosts alone long before you even get to do content, which too can often be a mesosink... DPM wise, yes, some classes can do better than NLs. But remember, those have put alot of money and time into getting to that DPM, which NLs can generally get to alot easier.

    "...or even better target the classes that are actually generating mesos."
    Solid statement, I agree.

    "This is also why I stopped card hunting on my nightlord. I was losing millions of mesos for little gain. We should be able to do content outside of bossing without worry of going bankrupt."
    I dont know where you were cardhunting or what stars you used for it, but Im sure the majority of cards can be gained by 1-hitting mobs with ilbi`s or cheaper stars. If you wanna use BF`s or MTKs on snails, then yes, youll go bankrupt.

    "The purpose of the increased buff duration on this skill is because nightlords inventories are clogged heavily with throwing stars and do not have a ton of space for att pots -specifically ciders."
    Ok, back to the other classes we go. As someone pointed out above, NL`s arent the only ones with clogged inventories. Warriors, especially DKs, need ALOT of pots for anything they do. Archers generally bring a ton of arrows cuz as much as they dont NEED to, soul arrow sucks and we all know it.

    Your comparison to buccs is somewhat legit, they do not use that many pots from what I heard from the buccs I know. Theyre also pretty damn strong, but their playstyle demands effort all the time. As theducel pointed out, they have to keep an eye on their screen all the time and press alot more buttons. Same goes for shads really, shads adapt to the situation so they change attacks depending on it. Theyre also close range so they take more damage when they get hit and DP makes them incredibly vulnerable. Also shads are known to be mediocre damage everywhere and nobody really recommends playing them (even tho they are very fun, do have good DPM and well, beginner friendly).

    NLs are simply overhyped, get put on a pedestal all the time and their demand for SE is always honored as 99% will just leave midrun when theres no SE anymore. Do you see why other classes have received so many buffs in the past, whereas NL`s havent? NL`s were (and to some extent still are) broken like that, so the other classes needed those buffs to "catch up". The alchemist change is gonna change things, but mostly economical. The class itself is barely hurt from it really...
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  16. OP
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    WackyWarlock
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    WackyWarlock Stone Golem

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    Nls have to reposition themselves - if anything it's more than shad/bucc. Just because we have avoid doesn't mean we never get hit. I swear if y'all actually played the class you wouldn't be saying this
     
  17. Raso
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    Raso Slimy Retired Staff

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    Actually, NLs have to reposition less. Due to their ranged attacks they can avoid attacks that shads and buccs cant (nameless claw for example). Alot of shads would still die to that claw attack by the way, unless they have washed alot or have HB.
     
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  18. OP
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    WackyWarlock
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    WackyWarlock Stone Golem

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    You think losing millions of mesos from hunting cards from snails and low level mobs is fair when others can do it little to no cost at all?
     
  19. Raso
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    Raso Slimy Retired Staff

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    I can tell you from experience that other classes dont actually lose millions to carding. (Trust me, Ive gotten tier10 on several classes without help) If you do lose millions youre doing something terribly wrong.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  20. brunandes
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    brunandes Windraider

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    Arguing casting MG as more impt due to survivability is not a legitimate argument though, it just means your shad needs to wash more. Shads and NL literally have the same washing requirement.
     
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