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Luk mage avoidability buff

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Nicholas, May 4, 2020.

  1. Vaessen
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    Vaessen Orange Mushroom

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    What do you think about having LUK directly contributing to MA (perhaps 2 or 3 LUK = 1 MA) on top of everything else you discussed. That could help narrow the DPS gap. Lukless mages will still do quite a bit more dmg.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Fraiche
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    Fraiche Pac Pinky Retired Staff

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    Brb making full luk hs/ress/sed mule to save HT splits :drool:

    Just my 2 cents though, making avoid scale 1:1 with luk would give a full luk mule at HT like 70ish% avoid, not to mention that you still get a significant amount of maxMP from your 1st job passive skill enough to survive HT even when going full lukless, not even accounting for wearing int gear before levelling. Maybe the dispels can make this not worth it. But I'd imagine this is enough for some people to justify not bringing an extra bishop to save on splits. I'm all for buffing luk avoid on mages, just pointing something out.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. OP
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    Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    I’ve been running HT bishop a lot recently, I don’t think this is feasible. Bishop needs to be 100% reliable in HT, and a mule is definitely not going to be reliable due to low mp and not high enough avoid. This is definitely not as exploitable as dex bucc, which is easily left to afk in HT due to its huge, easily obtained HP, higher avoid, and no need to worry about dispel or even seduce (mage dies very easily if it gets sed without will). Mage needs to respond instantly in HT in order to survive, so a mule is likely not worth the investment. Moreover, if people really thought a bish mule was viable they probably would have already made them, like what had been done with luk paladins. Finally, really shouldn’t decide against fixes just because a select few might try and abuse them in some obscure way.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. OP
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    Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    One step at a time I think. I'm still of the opinion that luk mages who just want more damage should take out their luk. I am advocating a different experience entirely.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. Fraiche
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    Fraiche Pac Pinky Retired Staff

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    But my comment was regarding its viability after your proposed 1:1 luk:avoid change...
    I'm not against the fix, never said I was. But the staff here have also been known to be against/made changes to things that only a few have abused, even though it ended up screwing everyone else who played normally.
     
  6. OP
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    Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    I appreciate your comments on this thread, it gives me more of an opportunity to justify this fix.

    I have already argued that it would be effectively impossible to abuse this fix, but if you really want more reasons to abandon this assumption, consider that in bossing, bishops (the only mule you'd have in this context) have one of the most important roles, and for many bossers with these types of mules (i.e high-level players seeking exp, successful runs, and often with heavy focus on DPS), this job is doubly important, and also not something that somebody can waste time on keeping alive. Hammer mules and dex buccs work because they can be left to AFK in bosses like HT, but this just doesn't work for bishops as they are already so fragile when it comes to mass seduce and dispel.

    A resulting question of this discussion is whether or not having a mule is an abuse, and if so, why doesn't the community treat dex buccs and HH mules as an abuse? So this technically isn't a viable argument against this fix, as with the current game meta having a mule is not currently an abuse.

    Even under the assumption that a select few do manage to find a way to have a luk mage mule, I think a perfect example for why this buff isn't actually asking much from the balance team is the buffs made to Heaven's Hammer and the Paladin class. Heaven's Hammer was widely abused after it's cool down was set to 10 seconds, and it is still widely abused at 15 seconds. This change is still abused so much that it has changed the entire meta around the paladin class (and not just for mules), which, I think, has significantly damaged the nostalgic experience around the that class. This buff has no real power over the mage meta, because almost all players want the luckless mage damage for leeching rather than the efficacy in bossing.
     
  7. OdinSteinGuy
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    OdinSteinGuy Pink Teddy

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    As a luk mage, i approve. I Restarted playing the game recently and join quite recently, and i don't plan to play the game seriously to the lvl of washing or plan ahead too much (A Quester Type player XD). I think it would be fair to give those who decided that they want to use gear and not sacrifice everything for Mag. DMG a bit of an advantage
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. Fraiche
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    Fraiche Pac Pinky Retired Staff

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    I never said it would lead to abuse, entirely your assumption from the beginning from misinterpreting my comments. So don't quote me as if you're debunking something I said. All I did was pointed out how much avoid you'd get, that you'd actually have enough MP to survive while also acknowledging it probably isn't feasible due to dispels, and acknowledged the possibility some people might do it anyway regardless that it might not be worth it. I never even said if any of these are positives or negatives or if would lead to abuse, literally left it all up to interpretation.

    This wasn't referring to your suggestion but your reasoning of fixes against abuse in general. Didn't even say if your reasoning was right or wrong, just pointed out what staff had done in the past.

    Can't seem to get the point across that I'm not attacking his suggestion :banghead: I'll just stop commenting now as I don't have anything more to contribute and don't want to derail this thread.
     
  9. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Luk mages could use a buff of some sort to make it more unique, but considering the avoid buff further I don't think this would be the best fitting solution.

    HT isn't the only part of a bishop's life, and other than your bishop and WackyWarlock I can't think of any other luk bishops that have ran regular Horntail, at least regularly enough that the buff would matter significantly. It would affect Horntail but I don't believe it would have any significant impact outside of the cave, which makes it a very situational buff and not necessarily a good enough reason to go be a luk-mage over a luk-less counterpart for your average player. It could save a few pots in the early levels but it just doesn't impress me, especially when staircases already have 100% avoid from levels 40-80. :whistling:

    I think it's a marginal buff at its best, but it could be a nefarious buff at it's worst. We need to consider an absolute Horntail degenerate like
    Skarmory
    gets a hold of this buff, and resets most of the int into luk to be a monster bishop with a full MP pool. All it would cost is about 3 million NX to turn an established bishop into a newly acquired dodge tank. And the people willing to do that are the people willing to use all of the degenerate strategies, where the bishop will be able to stand near HH mules/dex buccs for easy shielding, and using arm management techniques to disarm mass seds. If you already plan on spending 3mil NX making your new dodge tank, then you might as well also pump your MP back into HP as well, as without the ult cost having 30k MP becomes a lot less useful compared to 6k HP. After a dispel, Left Head's 5.9k attack is likely to miss, but even so you'd be able to tank it anyways with another million NX or so. In a year and a half one could turn their bishop into another monster. It's something worth considering, as when coming up with a design it's usually helpful to do your best to try to break it by bringing things to their absolute extreme.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Great Work Great Work x 2
  10. OP
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    Nicholas
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    There are no luk bishops in horn tail because there is no reason to have a luk bishop in the first place. Using the fact that there are basically no luk mages to benefit from this buff as a reason to not buff luk mages is not a sound argument because luk mages don't exist because they have not yet been buffed--- we have to start somewhere. Moreover, there is no reason that this buff should "have any significant impact outside of the cave" as otherwise we would be making luk mages fill the same role as lukless mages, which is undermines the goal differentiating between the builds-- if I wanted my luk mage to perform well in every context that a lukless mage did, I would reset my luk. I also wouldn't necessarily agree that this claim is even valid, but I don't think it is important to discuss this.

    I again don't think the Maple Legends staff should care much about the actions of individual players, especially because it is not an offense/abuse to have mules. Your argument makes it seem like players are going to start making bishop mules, but the overwhelming majority of players don't stick around to obtain the amount of vote cash required to do this (I've been here for nearly 4 years, so I've known so many more who've left than who've stayed over the years (even just one year)). Even fewer among those who stay this long have the drive to vote on a character they won't play for over a year, and even among those, even fewer would do it for just one mule which might turn out to suck. This is really a non-issue (again, especially since having a mule is not an abuse). The key take-away here should really be that the game does not revolve around the actions of the select few hyper-dedicated players (like skar), and this argument really minimizes the importance of the wider community around the game (i.e why should a new player feel welcome in a server which seems so focused on the clique of older players).

    This comment demonstrates that you did not read what I wrote in my post, which addresses how to abuse this buff (in this exact way that you suggest (with that exact player in mind lol)), and also shows you did not read the responses made on critiques others have made. I wouldn't be taking time to push this buff if I had not carefully considered how it would impact the game meta, and how it could be abused.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Annolis
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    Annolis Skelegon

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    I'm still completely in favor of this buff as long as it doesn't come in the form of a ring.:troll:
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. artificial
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    artificial Orange Mushroom

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    I think this is a wonderful idea. LUK mages have been trash since before 4th job ever came out.
     
  13. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    I suppose that really leads to asking why institute the buff in the first place if it's only niche enough to affect Horntail? The vast majority of bishops never try to become Horntail bishops, and the proportion of them who have gone on more than 5 Horntail runs is low, and the number who have gone on 50+ runs is absolutely minimal out of the scores of bishops out there. It just seems like an odd buff that feels clouded by more of a personal situation rather than what the majority of luk-mages actually want out of the class. To me it seems like a good majority of luk-mages aren't trying to optimize the class in the forums, they understand that it's worse off but they're willing to accept that for the personal reasons they have to invest in it, and that's fine on their part. They can play the game in the way they find most enjoyable and it doesn't affect my experience at all.

    Not everything needs to be optimal. While it would be nice for luk mages to have some advantage over their lukless counterparts, I don't think this is the solution that will make the most people happy. It just feels too niche while opening up a can of worms with potential exploitative builds. In a way I get the impression that it's more of an all or nothing sort of solution, and I don't believe it will have a very positive effect on Horntail even for a standard luk mage, as a more random dodge rate may mess with iframe actions.

    In some situations it may even be a bit detrimental in posturing on a bishop, like in the iies method of Genesis with Legs up, where you gen on toes, and jump gen back to position so long as the bishop has SI. A 10-20% dodge rate would probably mess up the flow of that movement, as it's a lot of precise, quick movements centered around getting knocked back in a regular fashion. Throw in more effective dodge-rate and the movement becomes more difficult, as you'd have to react to whether it misses or kb's you, giving way to another thing to pay attention to rather than mastering the muscle memory that comes from having a minimal dodge rate.

    The same can go for climbing ropes to buff your party. When you become good at knowing exactly what instance to climb a rope and where to get knocked back with iframes it can be slightly more difficult when the path you planned is thrown off by the random miss, making more random adjustments needed to accomplish the task at hand.

    I'll always be on the side of heavily vetting ideas, and properly testing them where possible. It's not always possible with the staff's limited time and some creative optimizations slip through, like recently the Duku meta slipping past with unconventional leech methods, or Halloween 2018 stew crafting, or the summer 2017 agent equipment. It's difficult to catch everything before issues arrive, or how something will really effect play in a positive or negative light, so it's better to play on the safe side while implementing anything. Everything said so far just scratches the surface of what it really takes to implement an idea, and testing is needed in all circumstances. Is it an improvement in Horntail? Why or why not? Some runs need to be done with really experienced bishops to find out. Can it be exploited? If so, how can it be prevented and can we find all the ways before implementation? How does it affect normal play for an average player? That's hard to measure as the game has many levels of play by many different people, and while it isn't easy to get a lot of feedback from many different players staff can try to put themselves in their shoes to make general assumptions. It takes a lot of work to do anything, even change a couple minor values with all of the background discussion that goes into balancing. I won't say that I know exactly what would happen if the buff is implemented, but I respect all of the work done to make changes and assume that staff have thought about it more than I have with the data they have available. All I can do is provide an outlook that may or may not make their job easier with some creative outlook and knowledge of the game.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    Whether you like it or not, this is how maplelegends IS balanced. The game does in fact revolve around the actions of select few hyper-dedicated players - just note how hammer mules got nerfed and how event drop rates balanced around the hardcore farmers.
     
  15. Annolis
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    I hope we aren't making an appeal to popularity - simply because a majority of LUK mages aren't trying to optimize the class doesn't mean none of them do. And the muscle memory you're describing would be true for LUKless mages, and therefore the LUK mages would have to develop a new system and strategy - this is completely incumbent upon the classes to figure this out and not a reason to not move forward with this idea.

    I think you might be right that it's possible this isn't the ideal buff for LUK mages, but the diversity factor is certainly something to aim for. Not to go off-topic, but I would love to see a different type of advantages and disadvantages among warriors depending on the weapon they choose, or between Thieves going DEXless or standard. You are right that we need to vet this idea carefully, and that this buff cannot be exclusively a benefit to HT. If you support diversity within classes, what would you propose would be a possible buff that LUK mages could have over LUKless mages?
     
  16. Annolis
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    Annolis Skelegon

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    You're correct, the admins look at hyper-dedicated players who try to break the game in order to properly balance it. But I don't think that was his point. I think he's suggesting we not limit ourselves to this fact and be willing to explore more options in order to create more diversity within the classes.
     
  17. Fraiche
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    Fraiche Pac Pinky Retired Staff

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    Make Luk mages have more stable dmg? Kinda like what dex does to warriors?
     
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  18. merky
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    merky Mr. Anchor

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    I agree that vast majority of bishops never try to become Horntail bishops. I never created any of my characters for endgame content; I want them to be enjoyable every step of the way. That said, I still feel that we have to take HT bishops into consideration in case there's any possible chance of abuse. You just need one person to prove that something's broken after all.

    Once again, since most clerics never live to face Horntail, I feel that adding LUK should confer some benefit to low level folks too. All those high LUK folks out there are strictly at a disadvantage, and I deleted my LUK cleric because it felt pointless to continue on with a gimped character. (And this is coming from a guy whose I/L has INT as a dump stat. I love cleric to bits but I'll rather play a STR I/L than a LUK cleric.) The benefit has to be significant enough to make LUK magicians viable, and TBH I doubt at high levels an insane amount of LUK would break the game.

    As for what LUK does... an avoid boost sounds nice. I'm partial to damage stability, but I'll definitely say no to a straight up damage boost. If anyone wants brute damage, they should go down the LUKless path, similar to how we have DEXless thieves and so on.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  19. OP
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    Nicholas
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    This is a specious argument. Hammer mules are still clearly broken because many people were quick to jump on the hammer mule train (because it only takes a few months of vote cash to make a 30k hp paladin) and the staff couldn't just destroy their characters. So this isn't actually the instance of the staff reacting to a select few players, but to a large number of them. Moreover, the nerf only decreased their potency by 33%, and hammer mules are still very common, and the paladin meta is still broken because the staff decided cater to the greater number of players who invested in hammer mules before a nerf was announced.

    The difference between a hammer mule and a theoretical luk mage mule is that it would take an exceptionally long amount of time for players to actually create luk mage mules, which limits the interest and therefore the number of luk mage mules that would ever be made. If a severe abuse became evident, nerfing it would affect a very small number of players.

    Drop rates are even less of an analogous situation. Reward rates in events need to be balanced around hardcore farmers because any player can be a hardcore farmer with little initial time investment. Moreover, since this is easy to farm, the number of hardcore farmers are many and they have a major influence on the MapleLegends economy, and therefore a major influence in the experience of all players. This is not analogous to how mules work in a boss, as mules only locally impacts the boss runs of the player who has the mule, having no impact on the inevitable result of these runs-- success (players theorized to have these mules are also the people who are going to have successful runs regardless).

    The more people suggest that luk mages will be abused, the more evident it becomes that there is no real argument for this. We're theoretically talking about the action of probably fewer than 10 players affecting nothing more than a couple of boss runs per day, and ultimately not actually changing the outcomes of those runs. So we're actually talking about the action of a few players doing nothing in the grand scheme of things (again, very much unlike event farmers). Why should we focus on their actions if they are going to do nothing to affect the game? Nobody has actually answered this question, and I doubt that it actually has an answer beyond that we shouldn't focus on this point.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. OP
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    Nicholas
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    Nicholas Mixed Golem

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    I think this is also a good idea. Higher avoid is probably not enough to balance the build, so I think this is another "natural" solution, and perhaps a combination of the two could produce a proper balance between luk and lukless mages.
     

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