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Potential Wipe / Bishop Changes Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by WEED_JESUS, Jul 23, 2016.

[SELECT ALL THAT APPLY] Hypothetically, what balance changes would you like to see made to bishops?

Poll closed Aug 6, 2016.
  1. Nerf Leech

    32.9%
  2. Nerf/Ban Self-Leech/Multi-Clienting

    28.8%
  3. Nerf Holy Symbol

    19.2%
  4. Balance Holy Symbol to Encourage Larger Parties

    57.5%
  5. Penalize Bishops for Using Elemental Wands (Nerf Luckless Bishops)

    30.1%
  6. Other [Post about it]

    5.5%
  7. None

    23.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Diego
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    Diego Capt. Latanica

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    This confuses me even more, I don't know what your point is at all.
     
  2. Lionheart
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    Lionheart Horntail

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    Lionheart
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    I'm saying that the situation I was describing is what is happening on MapleLegends now. And you try to contradict me saying that's not 100% true (nevermind the fact that I said "most" players have this mindset) by using your own anecdotal experience from GMS 10 years ago.

    It's like if I told someone that most people in San Francisco bike to work, and then that person, who lives in New York, says, "Yeah but I always drive." It's completely irrelevant and doesn't disprove what I just said.

    The mindset that most players would prefer to level up as quickly as possible is accurate, and this fact alone does not necessarily mean it's due to competition. Some people just want the power for the power and want it quickly, and don't really care how fast other people are leveling up.
     
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  3. dumbledore
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    dumbledore Capt. Latanica

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    dumbledore
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    Yes, of course, since why not lvl up as quickly as possible, with HS, so as to not waste time? It is completely natural to think that way.
     
  4. NatteHond
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    NatteHond Skelosaurus

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    Thought i'd join in with a small quote:
    In my opinion i think it should be kept this way.
    pls no cyberbully
     
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  5. moopmoop
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    moopmoop Brown Teddy

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    I would say that any changes to the current server's jobs should only be buffs (like the next update). Nerfs will just demotivate people who main those classes and negatively effect the server as a whole. What Nattehonde brought up makes good sense. If bishs were nerfed, someone who mains a bish would feel pretty bad about that. But if mages were buffed or something instead, those mages would feel pretty good. Happy players > Making players unhappy.
    Basically, do you want to balance things? Unless there is something obviously broken, small buffs are a good way to go.
     
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  6. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    Yea that's exactly the point here...
     
  7. moopmoop
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    moopmoop Brown Teddy

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    Well then from what I see, the "nerf the bishs" argument is the wrong way to go. Nothing about bishops is "obviously broken". They level up characters quickly and revive players in boss runs. That's it. To nerf either of those abilities will do exactly what I said, make players unhappy and nothing else.
     
  8. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    The broken part is where the fastest way to lvl up any character is to dual client and leech yourself using a bishop. The nerfs are mostly geared towards countering this.
     
  9. moopmoop
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    moopmoop Brown Teddy

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    This is an MMO, there's always going to be a Fastest way of grinding to high levels. In nearly 100% of MMOs I've played, powerleveling (leeching) is the best way to go, no question. The answer is not to nerf leeching since it's a legit part of the economy, the answer would be to buff other methods of training, as far as I see it.
     
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  10. Lionheart
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    Lionheart Horntail

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    Lionheart
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    There's a difference between something being "the fastest leveling method" vs being hands down, the most broken and by far the fastest, easiest, and most efficient leveling method.

    Looking at the rankings, that is nothing to sneeze at. Why don't you think about what you say for just a minute. If we buffed every class to be on par with bishop, instead of 4 level 200 characters, we would have 400.
     
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  11. moopmoop
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    If we're talking about the hands down best way to train, it wouldn't really be leeching, it would be duoing with a bish, which is much better for both people.
    Also I get you're using hyperbole but only 3 "Super op bish pls nerf" have made it to lvl 200, putting other chars on par in terms of leveling would put more like 20 people at 200.
    I will agree with you on one thing, though. HS is crazy good, a little too good. Problem is it's hard to nerf leeching through hs without negatively effecting the people who legit train with HS instead of leeching. Adding a party bonus will honestly just making leeching higher number parties even better, changing hs to only effect people that are killing is tough to do, and can still negatively effect people training in some situations.
    Another thing, you're taking what I said to mean that I think all classes should be buffed to train as fast as bishops. This is not what a meant. Every class has its benefits and strengths. If we made every class level equally and gave them all the same strengths then there would be no point in having multiple classes. In my opinion, bish's strengths should include fast leveling. Perhaps not as good as they have it now, but to take completely away that strength would negatively affect the server.
    You're ideas are coming from the right place, but I'm not sure you're considering the way it will effect other players and I think that's where our ideas differ.
     
  12. bbokko
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    bbokko Selkie Jr.

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    So then why would you nerf bishops and take away the ability to level up quickly?
    If thats what its come down to now thats the most compelling argument to keep bishops and HS exactly the same. People wanna level up quick and get to the fun stuff, we cant be bothered to party / look for an actual priest. We would rather fm HS ourselves
     
  13. bbokko
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    bbokko Selkie Jr.

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    You say its broken because its the fastest and most preferred method. Why does that mean its broken? It simply means everyone should just do it if leveling fast is what they want to do. All other classes gain absolutely nothkng if all you want is to nerf the fastest method. It doesnt speed up other methods.

    Obviously if something is #1, it doesnt matter what makes it #1 if its supposed to be #1. In your argument, there is no diference between "fastest" and "so fast its broken" because both situations net you the same result. So why make it a slower method if yoh dont intend it to not be at the top of the list still.
     
  14. Number32
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    Number32 Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Fastest way to level changed real quick tho, A/M masterrace now, 100m/h MapleF6
     
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  15. Hiyo
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    Hiyo Headless Horseman Retired Staff

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    only if you're hui :^)
     
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  16. Lionheart
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    Lionheart Horntail

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    Ok, let me draw you a fucking map.

    ClassBalance.png

    This is just some vague demonstration of how class balance should actually work. Let's say the first darker bar represents one situation, like solo leveling and the second lighter bar represents party leveling.

    In the first example, the three hypothetical classes aren't perfectly the same, but they appear to be around the same level, some doing better than others in different situations.

    In the second example, we see bishops far far ahead of the other classes with no comparison. Unless they happen to have the support of HS mule, which is from bishop, so therefore shouldn't even count.

    If you don't even understand this, then there's no point talking further.
     
  17. moopmoop
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    moopmoop Brown Teddy

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    Gonna need to see your math there since a/m have it way better now lul.
    Either way all you've done is highlight that bishops have the advantage in a single field of the game. Make a graph of dpm and Bishops plummet to the ground, while classes like NL shoot to the top. Looking at one aspect without considering others can make anything look imbalanced. "Omg this NL is hitting 3x what i hit at the same lvl gg pls nerf" meanwhile that's all they do. Try looking at their mob dpm and it's god awful.
    Balance in all things :^)
    Ironic you say that, because you don't seem to understand that without classes having distinct advantages and disadvantages we may as well have one class with no variation at all.
     
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  18. Huiae
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    Huiae Headless Horseman

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    selfleech isn't fast like you think, after lvl 160~170. legit grinding, or doing bossing like BF, Anego comes far faster than selfleech. (or i'm just too much dumb for selfleech so i can't overcome those grinding/bossing ppls.)

    selfleech is far more faster than training from lvl.65~140ish, for sure. I agree. but can't agree it's fastest way toward 200.

    or, If you're right, one of us - I, or attacker friends who grinded with me - is saying lie, for our eph.

    if you still hope to say selfleech is fastest way ~200, I demand your data to proove ur opinion cuz my datas I got till I make 3 19x charas is broken af.

    ps. I got 87m/h eph w/o HS, as just solo grinding in petri. I doubt any bish can beat this record with any ways they can do. you should replace "bish" into "archmage" cos mage is top for eph even as solo w/o using any mules.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2017
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  19. Huiae
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    Huiae Headless Horseman

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    I apologize for being aggressive a bit, but that graph is wrong also, far beyond from truth.

    those numbers are mesured eph in skele map.

    Mage/bishes eph ratio for solo : duo is approx 100:115 when they're 2hko, 140:125 when they're ohko.

    attackers eph ratio for solo : duo is approx 35 : 60 when their partner is another attacker, 35:80 when their duo partner is 2hko mage/bish, 35:90 when their duo partner is 1hko mage/bish.

    compared with those numbers, selfleechers eph is 50 when bish/mage is 2hko, 70 when bish/mage is ohko when leecher is same or higher lvl than bish/mage. (this goes down furthermore if leechers lvl is lower than bish/mage, and this is nearly 99% of selfleech.)

    ......i'm lazy to draw map, but your map which used as proof of ur opinion, is totally wrong i guess. or i'm saying lie.

    I'm literally shocked for this sentence.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2017
  20. Lionheart
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    Lionheart Horntail

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    No, you don't need to see any math. There is no math. I'm showing the difference between something that is simply better and something that is broken and extremely superior to everything else.

    That said, this thread has only been going on what, a year now? And now some new, actually viable training options besides skeles have finally opened up? But it doesn't mean anything said before is any less valid. Maybe now f/p mages will have entered the realm of broken exp/hr too.


    Well when 16 skeles on a map die at once, that is actually pretty damn high DPM. Oh, but of course, you must mean bossing, right? Does any bishop actually bother attacking? Cmon, you know a bishop's dpm in a boss fight is irrelevant. They are there to support the party and resurrect if someone dies. And that right there gives them high value in a boss run and a guaranteed spot, if not a necessity.

    Arch mages on the other hand, while they also might have an advantage of leveling quickly, do maybe double the dpm of a bishop on bosses, but double of barely anything is still hardly anything. They bring nothing else to the table.
     
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