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Potential Wipe / Bishop Changes Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by WEED_JESUS, Jul 23, 2016.

[SELECT ALL THAT APPLY] Hypothetically, what balance changes would you like to see made to bishops?

Poll closed Aug 6, 2016.
  1. Nerf Leech

    32.9%
  2. Nerf/Ban Self-Leech/Multi-Clienting

    28.8%
  3. Nerf Holy Symbol

    19.2%
  4. Balance Holy Symbol to Encourage Larger Parties

    57.5%
  5. Penalize Bishops for Using Elemental Wands (Nerf Luckless Bishops)

    30.1%
  6. Other [Post about it]

    5.5%
  7. None

    23.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. WEED_JESUS
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    WEED_JESUS Red Snail

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    **EDIT**
    **END EDIT**

    ---

    Hey guys, Jesus here. As per suggestion by BoggybBoggyb in the New World post, I've created this thread as a place to discuss a potential wipe, whether or not you want one to happen, and what gameplay changes you would like to see if it does happen, pertaining especially to Bishops (since they seem to be the biggest issue).

    Here are some of the arguments that people made in the previous thread. I've gone through and highlighted what I feel are the most important points:

    If your quote isn't here and you want it to be, PM me.

    Any and all input is appreciated. Stay on topic, and please, keep it civil! OnionBlush
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2016
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  2. OP
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    WEED_JESUS
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    WEED_JESUS Red Snail

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    Just want to clear things up here: the poll is about nerfing bishops in the context of a server wipe. I don't think it would be very fair to anyone nerf them in the current game.
     
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  3. merky
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    merky Mr. Anchor

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    I'm not really in favour of a wipe either... At any rate, the community is relatively small so it's easier to discuss potential changes to the bishop, such that any changes that are made eventually are in line with what the community wants.
     
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  4. Jackii Kon
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    Jackii Kon Dark Stone Golem

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    PogChamp I r e a d w i p e PogChamp I a m h y p e PogChamp

    In all seriousness though, while I do think a wipe along with changes to leech, bishops and HS would be very fun and exciting, I'm uncertain whether it would be beneficial to the server or not. I've been a solo player for basically 99% of the time so I wouldn't have any problem investing that same time into the game again (I'm also not exactly what you'd call high level, just kinda sitting on 135).
    Self-leeching might disconnect you from the community but playing solo will basically do the same and both are a choice at this point. We need changes that promote playing together instead of just paying x amount of mesos to get y Exp or shutting everyone out and playing solo cause you can't stand drama, dmg shame yourself or whatever. I think if we'd have that kind of change a wipe would be alright and definitely fun.
    I can only speak for myself though. I have no idea what any lvl 150 or lvl 160+ player might say, regardless of the class they chose to play.

    Wanting to be in the top ranks isn't a bad thing, it's not egoism. It's called being competitive and while it might seem silly to be competitive in such a small community, it's different strokes for different folks. If that's how you have fun I don't think it should be shamed. I believe every player no matter what level takes atleast a small amount of pride in their achievements. For some it's scrolling that godly item, for some it's being in the top ranks, for me it's playing solo.

    Would a wipe with changes to HS, Leech and Bishops cause people to leave? Surely.
    And although I don't have any say in what this server should or shouldn't be like, I believe losing players in such a small community is the wrong choice.

    Just my 2 cents and random 3am rambling.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2016
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  5. Clown
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    Since I cant sleep I will give my opinion about the options you gave us (too tired to think of new ones).

    Nerf Leech
    On one hand this seems like a good idea. And it might be, but you have to keep in mind we are playing on a 2x exp server. Almost all classes from 100-120 become a pain to grind if you have noone helping you. While I am certainly not saying it is impossible to overcome these levels till the sweet 4th job it is very very hard and time consuming. I think this will deter people away just before the end game content, because a lack of alternatives (currently mesos=4th job in a sense)

    Nerf/Ban Self-Leech/Multi-Clienting
    To start of I dont think multi-clienting and self leech banning should be under the same option as I believe those are not the same thing.

    Nerf/Ban Self-Leech
    This is a rule I consider stupid. This way you will allow people to leech eachother (Buying leech while you are at the same (or another time) selling leech is just stupid in my opinion (sorry using labeling to try and make a point come across if even stupider then the the thing I try to explain here). This would mean bishops had exactly the same advantage as they have currently only you are no longer self in control of the amount of exp you gain in a hour but you are letting someone else grind your atker.

    Multi-Clienting
    I believe multi-clienting, eventhough not being a big thing in EMS, is a good thing. Multi-clienting opens up so many possibilities, for me for example making an SE mule. Without having the possibility and eventual usefullness of making this character I obviously would not have done it meaning I would not have had the fun and reward this gave me while making it. Also killing bosses where you need someone to lure would become harder meaning certain grinding areas would become less used, which once again on a 2x server is a bad thing imo.

    Nerf Holy Symbol
    Maybe, I am struggling with this one. On the one hand I believe it would be amazing if holy symbol was removed and people grinded even when there was no bishop/hsmule available at the higher level training maps. On the other hand it gives grinding a certain skill/plan factor, having to make your way to the bishop around 120 seconds after you left him. I think holy symbol should remain but possibly the weaker classes should recieve this buff aswell (read as: idk you know what the weaker classes are MapleF3)

    Balance Holy Symbol to Encourage Larger Parties
    I just dont think there are a lot of maps which allow for larger parties to train. Besides that this would make training even harder as "people would no longer train without a 5+ man party". I dont think the size of the party really matters it is just that there is not many bishops grinding with atkers.

    Penalize Bishops for Using Elemental Wands (Nerf Luckless Bishops)
    When I first read this I was like YEAAHHHHHH LETS DO IT. But then I thought it over and it might have been because I started out as a luk mage. I think maplestory requires barely any skill and is mostly about the time spent (excluding iCheccoiChecco who because he has not so much skill loses lots of exp by dieing, and people like him). The only thing that gives you a edge of another player is by having knowledge about the game. By investigating before you act and knowing what you do. Luckless bishops know from the start that there is a lvl 130 weapon which makes them stronger then mages who follow the normal mage route. I think having knowledge over the game should remain rewarding (just like lvl 180- dexless nightlords, 4 dex warriors, str bandits etc.)


    There might be some spelling errors/ things I might change my mind on later, but this is how I feel about the subject right now. (pretty much there is something wrong with the current system but I believe this is a part of maplestory and since we are a low rate server I think we should not change this flaw in the system)
     
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  6. OP
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    WEED_JESUS
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    WEED_JESUS Red Snail

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    Bishops

    Bishops are extremely overcentralizing. They are the best class in the game, and if you don't have one, you're shooting yourself in the foot.

    • They require zero funding to be powerful.
    • They are the best at leveling/farming.
    • Leech.
    • They get HS.
    • They don't have to HP wash.
    ---

    I feel that nerfing Bishops in the current game would be unfair to both old and new players, the latter especially. The only way for a new player to be "competitive" at this point in the server's development is to create a Bishop. If we nerfed them now, it would become far more difficult for newbies to work their way into the upper echelon of players who were capable of leeching/farming themselves to the top.

    It would also be unfair for current Bishops, who have spent countless hours grinding, leeching, and farming, only to be severely nerfed. The sole reason that the majority of these players originally created Bishops was because they are the best at grinding, leeching, and farming.

    This is why I believe that a major nerf/change to Bishops should only happen following a wipe.


    Thanks for all the input so far!
     
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  7. Kimmy
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    Kimmy Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

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    ~This post is unrelated to the wipe part~

    Since this is a big opinion thread on Bishops, I leave an opinion. However, I direct you guys to an old (famous) topic where I left a long big of thoughts which were more a general thing: This and This

    Basically opinion of mine is not any different than back then. Though I am surprised (honestly) so many support that HS really should nerfed, changed, or completely removed. I wouldn't see that as a bad thing, since its in fact an overpowered skill (in my opinion)

    Now usually I get feedback in private why people quit, or they tell so in other servers. They are following based on lurking, hearing, etc.

    -The community is too small for preference
    -The server's EXP rate is too difficult and slow, especially slow (+ Lack of 'end game' content to combat this)
    -Forced boat rides (too much waiting, slow phase of game, etc...)
    -Gachapon/Economy issues

    Now I know there was a server that did combat self leech (and other servers did in past). However, I believe (and it happened) there were way too many holes in it:

    -People could use a VPN and pretend they were someone else
    -'Real' families could no longer play with each other due to limitations of the rule
    -Lack of proper moderation of the rule which lead to sneakly self leeching anyway

    So personally I believe putting rules for HS/Self leech is no go, and would cripple us incredibly. Now there's other things you can do, but that's not really the point of this topic, but rather to leave the feedback about what was offered.
     
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  8. Lyn00
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    Lyn00 Capt. Latanica

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    Wipe Hype
     
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  9. iChecco
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  10. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    I think OP offered a couple ways to combat self leech other than just not allowing it and having to enforce that.

    Nerf Leech

    Depending on how you would give shape to the nerf this could definetly deter people from self leeching and instead look for active training partners. Just make sure the exp gains are higher with 2 active players instead of one active and one afk.

    Nerf Holy Symbol

    This could definetly help make self leeching less attractive. Most players would use a bishop and nerfing HS would decrease the gap in exp gains between self leech and regular play.

    Balance Holy Symbol to Encourage Larger Parties
    Would probably help aswell, I know there's been people that used three or even four clients at the same time but most people would probably not bother. Definetly pair this with one of the above suggestions.

    Penalize Bishops for Using Elemental Wands (Nerf Luckless Bishops)
    Same as encouraging larger parties. On its own it wouldn't help too much since it would only bring bishops more towards other mages in terms of grinding, but paired with leech nerfs this could be beneficial.
     
  11. Soblet
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    Soblet Zakum

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    Having the EW penalty or not has no effect on the edge an informed player has over an uninformed one. If you'd implement the penalty the informed player would still have the advantage, the difference would be that luck bishops would get closer to luckless ones in terms of damage and since most bishops are luckless all other classes would get closer to their grinding efficiency aswell.

    Isn't the reason bishops aren't grinding with attackers because they'd rather sell leech or leech their own characters? And there's not many maps that can support larger parties in late game but there definetly are in early game. Even just an increase from a 2 player to a 3 player party would be great.

    Give every other class HS too? I guess that could work :p
     
  12. Lionheart
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    Lionheart Horntail

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    Another thing not even brought up is how easy even the cleric class is to level. It's too much free money that encourages botting.

    Either heal should not trigger MP eater, and/or the MP cost of heal should increase dramatically to balance the fact that it can heal you and 5 other party members to full health and massively save on mesos that way too.

    A few other mobs (like nightmares, fire brands, stormbreakers) should have their MPs nerfed so that you don't get ridiculous amounts of MP back as well. I do think high level mobs should have more than 200 MP for the sake of scaling and making the skill useful, but 5000 MP is way too much.
     
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  13. Bartunio
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    Bartunio Red Snail

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    I 'll add my few pennies about the wipe thread.
    1. We are here to experience a nostalgic maplestory. Maplestory in which best DPS are NLs, bowmasters or heroes and Maplestory in which Bishops are best farmers. Maplestory in which Bandits and Snipers are considered weird. This is nostalgic.
    2. Each character has its pros and cons, and they aren't fairly balanced. . Mages are generally farmers. They can't really do anything more. Would you prefer being farmer yourself irl? I wouldn't.
    3. We are here to experience a nostalgic maplestory. Each and every step forward is a step which makes us closoer to present, worse maplestory. The one in which HT is soloed in 5 seconds!
    4. Our world isn't full of 200s. There is just a single 200 lvl. What's the struggle?
    5. There are more casual players. For them losing what they've already achieved is a face kick. I wouldn't like to see a note 'you lost a month'. I'm here to play casual, nostalgic game, not to be considered competitive. If someone want's to be a competitive Mapler - let him/her be.
    6. Adding a new world would divide the community in 2 groups, what would make playing feel more lonely than it already is. Sooner or later one of the world would die out, because the other world would be considered better and more played.
    7. If there is anyone in this game who has already achieved EVERYTHING* in maplestory, then I'm sorry for him/her for having no life.

    What I would suggest is:
    1. Increase the gach tickets drop rate from bosses. This would encourage bossing what is usually made by non-mages. Getting gach tickets from regular mobs encourages farming (bishoping). Why not to go another way, by encouraging bossing?
    2. Adding a 'boss party quest' with gach tickets as a reward. This one is tricky, because a similar thing was a reason to make a wipe in mapledestiny. However, their one was too rewarding. High level chars could receive 3 white scrolls / day / godly char. That's why I recommend a single gach ticket or few per quest, depends on difficulty level.
    3. Make an event for competitive ones. The event in which they would have to rush to level x (e.g. 100) with no permission to join any party (excluding other event participants). This would have to be watched somehow though (e.g. screening every lvl up). It would also require from other members to know that they are event participants and they are not allowed to be leeched (recognising participants for sharing a part of name).

    I'd also like to add that cleric-like characters are kinda overpowered in many games.

    Bests!

    *As everything I consider having multiple 200s with godly equips.
     
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  14. Lionheart
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    Lionheart Horntail

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    You should speak for yourself. Not everyone is here for the nostalgia, and I would certainly say the rose tinted glasses come off fairly quickly for most people. Aside from that, nostalgia to one person differs to another.

    Me personally, I came here for a decent, low rate, pre BB maplestory server that isn't buggy, pay to win, or full of insanely stupid custom crap. Nostalgia really had little to do with it.

    The discussion isn't really about farming capability however. I'm sure the mage ultimates could be tweaked power-wise and economically wise, as well as boosting other skills to make them decent bossers as well, but this isn't the issue at hand: There are pros, there are cons, and then there are extremely overpowered tactics which are absolutely essential to be "competitive". For nearly all the top players, they're either bishops or people leeched by bishops. And the reason for this does not lie solely due to the mages' farming ability, but because of the way Holy Symbol works.

    Again, not true. And what is discussed here has nothing to do with "stepping forward" or being more up-to-date in versions. We are talking about custom changes which would actually balance Holy Symbol and the Bishop class.

    Even with OP bishops, getting to level 200 is still a huge endeavor and you'd have to pour insane amounts of time and effort and have no life to achieve it. The only thing a lack of level 200 players means is that the vast majority of players have lives, lost interest in training, or simply haven't played long enough.

    Define what a casual player is and how many of those casual players still play clerics, priests, and bishops. I've been called casual myself too. I've gotten to level 136 so far, 99.9% with no leeching whatsoever.

    So honestly, I would be losing a hell of a lot too, although I am thinking it wouldn't be so bad if some very good, significant changes to the server were made...

    I don't think a world will ever die out, but it will at least give players the option of trying it rather than people who just shout NO NO NO MUH NOSTALGIA and nothing ever changes, and every maplestory pserver out there mechanically works exactly the same with the same broken classes and the same content.

    Not an argument.
     
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  15. Number32
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    Number32 Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Blablabla Holy Shield overpowered blabla nerf Holy Shield blabla get rid of holy shield...
    Take holy shield away and bishops will be more rare than Paladins. It's currently the only thing that makes them useful at grinding. I/L and F/P mages are way more powerful than Bishops, and they do way more single target dps aswell. I don't know why people want to fuck up bishops so badly but imo its unnecessary.
     
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  16. Lionheart
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    You must mean holy symbol.

    And try leeching a random person hanging on a rope in skeles with a bishop vs an i/l or f/p arch mage.

    The bishop not only gets MORE exp for just having an extra party member on the map who does absolutely nothing, but the other useless person gets tons of exp too, AND the bishop one-shots skeles way earlier than the arch mages due to their weakness to Holy property. Every other place like ToT has pretty bad spawn for training with mage ultimates anyway, so skele maps have pretty much been THE best places for everyone to grind since.... forever.

    The suggestion here is not to take away Holy Symbol, but to nerf/modify it so that it encourages larger parties with active members. If you weren't being so flippant and dismissive, maybe you'd actually read what's written here and not only understand what's being suggested, but why.
     
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  17. Number32
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    Number32 Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Yeah, I meant Holy Symbol ofc.
    Bishop one hitting skele earlier is BS. I remember Cozy 1 hitting skele waay earlier than Franco. (F/P vs Bishop) and I said nerf aswell didn't I? :p Guess you're not that good at reading yourself.
     
  18. SwordArt
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    SwordArt Windraider

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  19. Lionheart
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    lol, as if paying attention to and remembering some joking comment you made half a year ago has anything to do with literacy. Or matters.

    And I bet the reason Franco was outdamaged was because his equipment was stolen.

    It is true that when you get Meteor and Genesis to high levels, combined with element amp and elemental wands, it will do slightly more damage, but again the cost is 2x the mp consumption and no selling leech to pay for it.
     
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  20. Sucre
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    Don't bet too much on that cause you will lose all you've got.
     
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