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Potential Wipe / Bishop Changes Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by WEED_JESUS, Jul 23, 2016.

[SELECT ALL THAT APPLY] Hypothetically, what balance changes would you like to see made to bishops?

Poll closed Aug 6, 2016.
  1. Nerf Leech

    32.9%
  2. Nerf/Ban Self-Leech/Multi-Clienting

    28.8%
  3. Nerf Holy Symbol

    19.2%
  4. Balance Holy Symbol to Encourage Larger Parties

    57.5%
  5. Penalize Bishops for Using Elemental Wands (Nerf Luckless Bishops)

    30.1%
  6. Other [Post about it]

    5.5%
  7. None

    23.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. SwordArt
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    SwordArt Windraider

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    this thread was started in July and now its just pointless arguing someone just close the thread already LOL
    this is pretty entertaining though TriHard
     
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  2. Annolis
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    Annolis Skelegon

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    Wiping the server would cause a rage quit so massive, there will be a crater left where I used to live.

    With that said, I understand the desire to have people play their characters the way they were intended, but Neckson didn't think about any of their intentions when they designed the game. People have found loopholes and instead of doing it the intended difficult way, people end up doing it the easier way. If there was a way to code the system so that HS and Party Exp Bonus only works if other party members have hit/killed something in the last 30 seconds, that might make leeching go away. But I don't know how difficult that is to do.

    This is the same line of complaining that I have toward LUKless mages and DEXless thieves, and Z-Helms being level 50. I've always looked at this game from the economic standpoint. If people can create statless characters, why do we even have weapons and armor with that 2nd stat requirement? If anyone at about level 70 or so can leech a Zakum run and get a Z-Helm (which is ridiculously godly), why do we even have level 80/90/100/110 helmets? Having these equips becomes a way of flaunting how stupid you are for wearing it! There are a number of changes that need to be made for the game to restore some sensibility and sanity. The only way to have any of this make sense is for (get ready to possibly laugh yourselves to death) is to make the most meaningless stat become relevant...W.Def/M.Def. We should have to choose between doing a lot more damage, but being forced to take more damage, or mitigate the damage taken at the expense of not being able to dole out as much. So if you're a level 190 at Skeles at you've got some level 10 armor on, the Skeles should be able to 1HKO you. But if you're level 110 with 110 armor on, you should be able to take about 5 hits before dying. I've also argued that we shouldn't get a Zakum Helmet, we should get a Zakum Ring so that other helmets would still be sought after. Neckson made it a Helmet on purpose so you'd buy Cash Shop covers for such an ugly helmet - we don't need that anymore!

    Since I've only had one character, a Paladin, reach 4th job, I can only speak to that class. They need to be able to out-damage Heroes on elementally weak bosses, their Intimidate skill needs to be percentage-based, and there needs to be specific pros and cons if we decide to make a 1H or 2H character.

    There are a number of things that need to be fixed. The question is whether or not the GMs risk such an experiment.
     
  3. BustyGalsFTW
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    BustyGalsFTW Red Snail

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    1- The death of the bishop class: You'd be taking away the only reason people ever play bishops to be honest. Bishops/Clerics/Priest are by far the most boring class in Maplestory HISTORY (apart from beginner I guess). Being a good source of leech (and Ghost Ship 2 farm) is, in my humble opinion, the only reason bishops are actively played PQs and Boss buffs. Having the bishop's power nerf'd makes sure that nobody wants to use it. Nobody wanting to use the healing class in an MMORPG is dooming the game.

    2- Having a healing class that is powerful is good: I've played many games - an ENORMOUS amount of games. Probably as many PC games as a ton of the players here combined. One thing that all successful grindy MMORPGs have is having a go-to money-making class that NEW players can get into, make money and still be able to be useful compared to veteran players despite a lack of gear. It's the only way new users can sort-of-kind-of catch up to the "elite" of the server. This class is, in a majority of cases, the healing class, may it be in Rappelz (bishop/priest), WoW (regen/boomkin druid in this case), CABAL Online (FA), etc. They all have an easy-to-get-into useful support class. That's what Maplestory is doing and that's the only reason new players can participate and be useful to older players in group events: powerful support classes. Such phenomenons are also observable even in FPS games like Battlefield 1 (and even Overwatch and TF2) where the medic is arguably an extremely powerful class that's easy to get into. This is all in the effort of making sure supporting classes are still played by players (despite their occasional lack of entertainment value...) to forcibly establish a cohesive glue between player interaction of different levels of experience and monetary power. Therefore, nerfing bishops would bring about nerfing team cohesion, which, in a server with ~80 players active at all time, is terrible. It would also make it harder for new players to catch up and feel like they're part of the community.

    3- Nerfing lukless Bishops is bad: Simply because it removes a layer of depth to the bishop class. Now, I know this entirely depends on how hard it's nerf'd but it'd just be silly to nerf a certain build, in my opinion, in a grindfest game. It would make the class even more brainless and nooby than it already is.

    4- Nerfing spawn rates: This is something that could be debated by people with more experience than I. But I feel this would be the only viable change, in my eyes, to remove power off of the leech meta (at least the skele maps) while not pissing off people.

    5- Multi-clienting ban: Honestly I'm not really sure how this one was allowed. I remember when I created my account a month ago, I actually read the TOS and DEFINITELY recall an anti-multi-clienting policy being in play. I literally see everyone do it though. Including GMs. But then again, Multiclienting feels like almost a must at times due to the server's low population. This is a policy that definitely needs to be looked into by the admins.

    6- A wipe is a terrible idea: By wiping, you make sure your most active players (the ones that play 6 hours a day, you know who you are) gets pissed off and leave or not be as active as before. Less active players = exponential decrease in server demographic = dead servers. IF THE WIPE is still enforced, it is absolutely imperative that admins, not only reimburse donor points (as in, either the items are not wiped or the donor points are reset) AND they give a 3-4 week's grace where the XP/Mesos/Drop rates are boosted beyond normal standard so the server's economy can get back rolling. This time period will ensure enormous activity rate as well as create an appeal for new players to join the server (due to there having been a wipe) which would allow a refresh of the pillars of Maple Legends' community. BUT, that's also how you make everyone that grinded for AGES AND AGES feel like utter shit.
     
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  4. Number32
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    Number32 Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Only lukless mages are better endgame. Dexless sins suck at ~140+ Dexless warriors are nice but they dont need a 2nd stat, str-less sairs/bm/mm suck etc.. So they do have a purpose.

    These level 70-100 helmets exist because there wasnt always a time where zak got killed in 20min, and people went without zhelms until level 170+ (IGN Sunshine is an example of this) so they serve(d) a purpose aswell. Also cosmetics are lit.

    typed this out on phone forgive me for my typos/layout/whateverthefuck
     
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  5. Annolis
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    Annolis Skelegon

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    I'll take your word for it, as I said earlier that I've never done anything above level 120 except my Paladin. But I've tried selling equips for mages/thieves that required LUK/DEX respectively and I've been called an idiot for even bothering to sell them because, as they said, "No thief who knows what they're doing would ever put any AP into DEX, so no thief would ever buy that." These types of things irritate me. Oh, and cosmetics are fine! I'm just saying we shouldn't need to ditch the 110 helmets.
     
  6. Number32
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    Number32 Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Yeah, dex items arent worth it <lv 90~ but after that Nightlords will start scrolling lv 80 equips. I guess those people just never got to end game :p
     
  7. Lionheart
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    The lukless mage phenomenon is an oversight the game developers made. Since INT = magic (a bit better actually), an observant player could see how adding luk just to wield a "stronger" wand and "better" equipment was pointless, seeing as you got more total magic sticking with pure int. And then when you saw that an item like yellow umbrella granted more magic.... Honest to god, when I first got into maplestory around 2005 or so, I had one of the first lukless magicians/wizards out there, and people would give me weird f6 looks and say I looked poor because I didn't have the luk to wear gear at my character's level.

    A much more simple way to encourage the use of the secondary stats is to buff the regular equipments' stats. For instance, instead of wands/staves following a linear formula that you can predict their magic attack, it should curve to greater and greater magic power to more than offset the magic power lost due to adding points to luk.

    But yeah. Wdef/mdef could be made more valuable, but I think the scrolls would have to be a bit more effective too. And also, maybe damage formulas entirely revamped... which... isn't going to happen, since all of this is coded client-side and the staff can do nothing to change those formulas. Also, wdef and mdef really do not matter much to the elite players. The only thing that matters is if they can avoid getting 1hKO'd. If they can, they can just pot the damage off, and they're golden.


    Edit: just for the record, I also think a wipe is pretty stupid. Especially considering that I didn't benefit from any of this bishop syndrom nonsense. At least not directly or even all that close indirectly. Because when you go on a boss run with other bishops or people leeched by them... welp...

    But in any case, I might tolerate a wipe. But only if there are very significant and real changes. I think I said that somewhere else already...
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2017
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  8. Unlucky
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    Unlucky Mr. Anchor

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  9. Lifeguard
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    Lifeguard Mushmom

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    The reopening of old threads are op. To everyone that would like a potential nerf... Please its v62, when you joined the server you already KNEW that you will get into, bishops op, nl/bm duo op, heroes op,drk op the rest is meh. That's what the game was and this private server is what it will stay! If you wanted op classes you can always suggest Kimberly to make a later version of MapleLegends, but bitching about nerfs its just plain stupid. You just basically saying I want the nostalgia but my class is too weak, please code the shit out of v62 and make my class great again which is not going to happen. You might not like the concept of bishop, but it is what game was when global was v62. /Close thread
     
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  10. Annolis
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    Annolis Skelegon

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    Personally, I didn't join this server for the nostalgia. I wanted to play MapleStory again, not that behemoth piece of **** that Neckson ended up creating. I could have chosen any of the maple servers, including MapleRoyals - which I did play for awhile. But the problem with that server was the x8 experience. Because this is a x2 server, there is an inherent expectation from this server that you don't have for other servers. Figure the following:

    1. If I wanted to play every character to level 200 just to get a feel for each class and reach the end as fast as I can, then I should play one of the x1000 experience servers.

    2. If I wanted to just play one character class as quickly as possible to level 200 with at least a chance to experience some of the nostalgia, I should play one of the x8 - x20 experience servers.

    3. If I wanted to play MapleStory and see it develop into what it could have been had it not been for those dumb f**ks at Neckson, then I would play a x2 server and give it as much support as possible so the GMs could create an entirely new MapleStory who say, "We're not here to give you nostalgia, we're here to give you the MapleStory we all should have had."

    I don't want nostalgia...I want what Neckson took from us and what Neckson could have given us had they not been so stupid.
     
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  11. Lionheart
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    Lionheart Horntail

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    I've also explained already that not everyone is here for nostalgia, and even if they are, that quickly wears off. etc etc But this is by far the best argument made yet.

    Unfortunately, despite the reasons others may or may not have had in joining this server, it's still quite heavily advertised and described as nostalgic. So it means nothing is going to change anyway.

    I just want to point out, though, that my version of nostalgia involved the lower levels. I never got to 4th job, and to me at the time, people multi-clienting at the same time was a weird thing. The biggest hinderances to my enjoyment of maplestory back then were the moneygrubbing policies of Neckson, and hackers and botters. And when you look at how this server advertises itself, even if based on nostalgia, I'd argue it focuses on those first low levels too, when you "rediscover" the game.

    All of this is perfect. But the endgame, which I and many people had never even got the chance to experience back then, is not.
     
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  12. TumTum
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    TumTum King Slime

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    Well, Legends slightly buffed paladin and marksman to make them more comparable, dps wise, to the other classes didn't they?
    I think that just like paladin which has no clear benefits over a hero or drk, archmages have no clear benefit over bishops.
     
  13. Number32
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    Being able to kill stuff (in 1 hit) that ISN'T holy weak is a decent benefit tbh
     
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  14. Lionheart
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    Lionheart Horntail

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    The only reason this may be true is when the skeles maps are already overcrowded. So some exp is better than no exp.

    That still doesn't change the fact that skeles have been and always will be the best exp - which is why everyone does that anyway. The other maps are mostly unused, unless you really, really are that bored of skeles or just need this one skillbook many people probably already have.. but have no way to reach them.

    If an arch mage could actually make equal, or dare I say better (not counting HS), exp then maybe you'd have a case.
     
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  15. Number32
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    Number32 Skelegon Retired Staff

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    You seem to forget Leech (with HS mule) and farming for items to make better gear / farming HT items (Cant 1hit cornians until like 14xx magic with bishop i think) which takes 1h+ sometimes :S
     
  16. Lionheart
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    Lionheart Horntail

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    Wow, like having to 2-shot cornians is a big deal? Even if someone else isn't helping you farm those HT items (which really isn't that hard btw) at least bishops are welcome with open arms to the runs.

    And farming other items is kind of a joke and might as well not even be mentioned. 99% of everything good you want to equip yourself with comes from gach or these boss runs, and as for all the other stuff that is farmable, the monsters have such low HP that even if they aren't holy-weak, it doesn't matter.

    Example:
    ele wands: gach
    30% wand scrolls: anego
    purple capes: gach
    60% int cape scrolls: easy mobs
    yellow snow shoes: anego
    yellow work gloves: gach
    glove magic attack scrolls: gach
    zhelm: zakum
    helmet int scrolls: gach or easy mobs
    shield matk scrolls: gach
    oa int scrolls: easy mobs and gach

    and the list goes on and on. arch mages have absolutely zero advantage when it comes to any of this, except actually they'll probably end up being poorer because of 2x mp cost and no leech selling or self leech.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2017
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  17. Number32
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    Number32 Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Not everything is about INT scrolls. Take for example newts, who drop Nisrocks. They can be one-shot by archmages way earlier than bishops and this makes it way easier to farm there (you wont constantly get knocked off the platform). Gene 30 costs 3.5k HP, Blizz30/Meteor 30 7k. Hm. If a bishop 2hits.. And an archmage 1hits.. Bishops use 7k MP + Mob hits, Archmages 7k aswell! Wow!
    Leech selling with an archmage is far superior over a bishop if you get an HS mule. I don't really know why youre debating this.. 1 hitting Squids/Cornians/Newts helps an amazing amount with leech speed. So.. yeah
     
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  18. TumTum
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    TumTum King Slime

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    But this way you are still forced to make a priest which is halfway bishop.

    Also if you looked at ele wand, it is actually important which ele wand you get for archmage. Bishop gets a boost from every one of them. Another one of the small benefits bishop have over archmage.

    Also how much is way earlier to 1hko things like squids? Not sure how much stronger archmage exactly are than bishes on non holy weak.
     
  19. Huiae
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    Huiae Headless Horseman

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    I trained my fp 120~161 in kent, I didn't even killed "any" skeles during that lvl. since I hoped to farm some gears and scrolls. am I weird? o.o......

    I know skeles eph is best (technically, this is wrong. you'll know if you hit ohko ob2/4 with il), but getting exp isn't everything of ML, and for versatility, mages gets "significant" pro than bish.
    double pot mesos? ok, i'll confess truth. I loot like 10m in an hour and spend 1.5m in an hour for pot mesos. so earn like 8.5m in an hour.
    while getting 60m/h exp and half for leechlord. am I bish? no. what broken is HS, not gene.
    and it's 2 spam / respawn. if you duo with another guy, you'll only use 1 spam (if you can ohko them). than 1/2 again.
    did I mp washed? no. my fp didn't. if I use my il, i spend less than even 1m. fking greedy leechlord takes all votes, time to vote abuse kappa
    if my mp consume gets 1/2ed so lets assume bish earn like 9.25m an hour. getting 0.75m/h is that huge benefit?

    also, multiclienting was popular from even 2005 when el nath came on KMS. since archer/thiefs are started to die cuz of hard hits. HBplz this bain is 2hard4me

    I hope you guys don't deny that mage has "bunch of pros" compared with other jobs. it's OP. absolutely.
    If you feel you're losing mesos in grinding, check urself something is wrong. even with 3hko, maxmp 10k, I earned more than i used.

    (and this is not general but specified pros in ML, ez 30 ht books, isn't ignorable.)

    that's how "economy" came up. not everybody farms it but everybody gets it eventually. and for "generating" mesos, mages are at least 2~3 times better than another jobs, -10%~-20% worse than bishes. can't satisfy with it?

    I've never saw who is richer than me. (at least around me). seems i'm not mage and have secret bish account. cuz i'm not doomed as you mentioned.
    this logic makes myself feel weird also cos I've never sold any zhelms nor leech. meso duper confirmed.

    honestly i'm really surprised for same job player can have completely opposite opinion for it.
    I'm sure you're old enough in this server to know this - who ohkoed skele first in ML and started pumping mesos was FP mage, not bish, thx for mage's OP pros compared with bishes.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2017
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  20. Lionheart
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    Lionheart Horntail

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    I like how the argument is all, "Mage is way more OP than bishop! All you need to do is make a bishop to support it!"

    Onion...

    Well technically a priest, but that's splitting hairs at this point. The main thing that makes bishop more desirable is HS which kinda does say that EXP is what all too many players focus on above everything else. And you might want to check the elemental strengths and weaknesses of squids.


    CozyCozy You're an amazing player, I'll give you that.
     

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