Shadowers HP Challenges need tweaking

Compressed my thoughts in a reply in a few more clearer sentences:

Shadowers and Warriors got about the same range they can attack from. Fully buffed they don't differ that much survivability-wise with the challenges, but the only difference is unlike their counterparts, Shadowers get put in the position where they are in the riskiest place (in range of touch damage and magic attacks), while being the squishiest attacker on literally the entire map during dispel. Since Max HP can’t compensate Min HP, I don't think it would be bad if this would be discussed.

ps: added some more clarity

Spoiler: Old Post

Hello,

The HP Shadowers get with the HP Challenges needs some tweaking in my opinion.

Shadower gets the lowest amount of HP out of any class and you might think that this is fair, because of two main points:

1. Shadower has Meso Guard, making it so you take 50% less damage,
2. Shadower has the highest avoidability.

The problem is these arguments are not very good in my opinion. Why?:

1. Meso Guard is a buff and can be dispelled. Meso Guard is not some nice QoL, but something you fully rely on if you go the HP Challenge route. What this means is Shadowers have, during dispelling bosses, the equivelant of a built in debuff which randomly turns off your Pet HP, damages you for 50% of your max HP without giving you the iFrame of being hit (for bosses which dispell without attacking) and requiring you to stop attacking to use your pots, all while being in touch damage range. Not really a great mechanic, right?

2. Even with Meso Guard, solely going off of your base HP of 10.000 HP at level 180 (20.000 with Meso Guard), your HP is still significantly lower than that of a Warrior, while being at the same if not closer range.

3. Avoidability is a QoL based on RNG. In my opinion QoL things, especially if it's based on RNG, are totally irrelevant when considering things which you rely on. You can't say Shadower's can get away with a lower amount of HP because of their high Avoidability, because RNG will fail and there is no amount of skill that can compensate for that.

4. Even Night Lords get 2.000 more HP than Shadowers.

As something made so every class can do every boss with HB, it feels like Shadowers really got the short end of the stick.

The solution?:

I must say, I definitely don't know enough about the game to make a well-balanced solution, but I hope this thread can start some conversation.

Giving the required HP to be able to survive without MG would make Shadowers exceptionally tanky, but even though I don't think this is the solution, as a "washing alternative" this is also the case for washed Shadowers. I think a combination of a Meso Guard rework or a custom solution and rewarding more HP would be fitting.

In this spoiler I will keep a list possible solutions provided by the community to keep it fitting in the "suggestions" category and to keep them from being scattered in the replies:

Spoiler: Solutions?

Empty for now

Thank you for reading, very curious to read what people think

 

I have yes, but I guess the other classes get those as well and I still feel like with that in mind especially for Shadowers the system needs some tweaking.

If I was the only one thinking this then I may not have made the suggestion, since as mentioned I don't feel like I know a whole lot especially about endgame. But I have spoken to a good amount of people who do know a lot more and they at the very least agree that the challenges are underwhelming for Shadowers, so I decided to make this thread to get some more opinions since nobody had yet.

 

It's not that I don't think people should be able to die, because it is indeed part of the game and I think players hands should be held less rather than more.

The post is mainly to point that it might not be fair that Shads just have gotten the lowest amount of base HP, while having one of the shortest range and also 2 potential fail points (need both HB and MG). Shads kit is very good for survivability, but instead of them receiving a nice amount of HP to become that class with high survivability, the kit is being used to get them to barely survive if you're lucky instead. It's like they would've given Dark Knights ~18k base HP instead of the 27k they're getting now.

 

Mainly they get less numerical HP than other classes, while they aren't very reliably tanky anyway.

Shadowers and Warriors got about the same range they can attack from. Fully buffed they don't differ that much survivability-wise with the challenges, but the only difference is unlike their counterparts, Shadowers get put in the position where they are in the riskiest place (in range of touch damage and magic attacks), while being the squishiest attacker on literally the entire map. I don't think it would be bad if this would be discussed.

 

The comparison I made with hyper washed Shadowers was more to show that it would not "break the game" if HP Challenge Shads got a slight buff, given they would still not even be a fraction of those characters and rightfully so since those amount of HP make no sense to begin with.

My main point from my other reply:

 

The highest high cannot compensate for the lowest low and the low is where the issue is. The high can be lowered if needed to compensate, but the low is too low in my opinion. Why should a melee character become by far the most squishy attacker momentarily during runs?

 

Mages have the same issue, yes, but are at the same time a different type of class. Making a balanced change for Shads to be more comparable to Warriors during times off buffs is likely much easier than doing the same with mages. The "what I can't/couldn't have, nobody can have" mindset is a bit stupid if this is something which can reasonably be changed.

You could also turn it around and ask if Warriors should get a debuff where their hp decreases to 10k during dispel? If not, why not?

My goal is not to make a broken class, but to fix a system which in my eyes has a flaw. I highly doubt anyone on the server does not at least see a slight imbalance if you compare Shads to Warriors or even ranged classes in the sheet. And just in case I repeat, the very tankiness of Shad at it's max does not compensate for it's extreme squishiness at it's lowest. Even if Shads had a max HP of 100k, it is totally seperate.