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Skill balances for all Jobs

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by KurayamiLove, Mar 27, 2019.

  1. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    It's actually kind of difficult to make assessments of what to buff based on just the dpm calculations alone. Actual damage vs. target dummy damage doesn't account for time spent fixing your character in combat as a Corsair/Bowmaster/Marksman would spend more time than a Night Lord due to Shadow Shifter. The same goes for attempting to maintain Zerk as a Dark Knight vs. a Hero/Pally just continuously chipping away. Under ideal circumstances a lot of the classes look fairly similar in the charts, but things get messy when you're knocked back or need to use a potion and the dpm differences are made more apparent.

    I think the dpm calcs have come up a few times in the forums before, and according to them things are mostly fair, but they can't really compensate for the various content nuances, like the vertical range on the Hero's Brandish vs the Dark Knight's Crusher, or mounting/dismounting a ship, or time spent using potions or buffing your party members.

    It becomes a mess of variables and ideally we'd have a team work things out on a test server run of Horntail or something, with everyone using some standardized equips at level 170 or something. If it means balancing things I'd sign up for that. Sounds like a ton of work though.
     
  2. Fraiche
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    Fraiche Pac Pinky Retired Staff

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    Not quite. Freezing has uses even at endgame mobbing, i.e. Shaolin maps. For example, in 5-6, freezing actually gives more dpm on total mobs attacked because it enables better positioning of your char on elevated platforms at the bottom of the map which lets you hit more mobs at the top. Without the freezing mechanic, Meteor users often gets knocked over thus missing their attacks on some of the top mobs. This only applies in a solo situation where you have to rotate both sides of the map. Not a huge difference, but it shits on FP when they're supposedly the highest mage dpm dealer. I suspect this difference will be even more pronounced if ML decides to release new content with tougher mobs. Now that I wrote this, it doesn't seem to be that much of a problem at the moment. Guess I'm just ranting.
    Oh and pots saved from getting hit from mobs is a plus too. Not expecting any changes to be made as this thread seems to be all about bossing classes
     
  3. OP
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    KurayamiLove
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    KurayamiLove Skelegon

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    I didnt knew that, maybe I asumed they were able to crit (maybe it even display crits on third person due to a bug like se makes all third person hits look like a crit) Other solution would be make that skill crit like the rest and maybe if you hit for weakness it will be a much better skill on some situations.
     
  4. OP
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    KurayamiLove
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    KurayamiLove Skelegon

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    I see, Fire Poison has Elquines to freeze, back then at the old days elquines saved your ass on newties freezing that anoying newtie as soon as it came out, altho elquines freezing is weird or maybe all freezing is cos sometimes mobs just get rid of it in less than a second. To give FP maybe more options Elquines could just hit up to 6 mobs to help a bit with it. My posture about thinking about buffs is that meteor as it is, is an op skill, blizz is op too but I dont want to suggest nerfs (no one likes them) so I dont really think meteor needs a buff and Blizz shouldnt get nerfed. Solution as I said maybe make all sumons more active, attacl up to 6 mobs and attack more often this may help FP freezing with his one as well as increasing the damage output of the rest( sumons as they are right now add a little bit of damage without being that significant, and at the same time is kind of a free damage so any free dmg is always wellcome o.o)
     
  5. OP
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    KurayamiLove
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    KurayamiLove Skelegon

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    Well I can tell you how those jobs work:
    MM every 5 seconds they snipe the rest is strafe. So it would be strafe attacks per min (95 per min if max speed) and then deduce the snipes 12 a minute so per min a mm does 83 strafes and 12 snipes per min. (Fun fact strafe is 30 ms slower on xbows matching speed with bows o.o same with eruption and similar skills)

    Buccaneer has two or three 1vs1 options:
    Barrage>Dragon strike> repeat
    Barrage>Energy Orb> repeat
    Demolition spam

    Shadower outside Meso explosion often do:
    Dark sight>Assasinate> Boomerang (cancels last hit of assasinate)
    Assasinate spam at the end of a platform (this is used on ht, last hit of assasinate cant happen on the end of a platform so you can spam the 3 hits)
    on Papulatus you can spam assasinate including the last hit.
    Cleave is just boomerang.

    Including meso explosion I know they can drop mesos as they attack and by spenind a lot of mesos that way they can up theird damage a bunch but is all meso explosion. I dont think pick poket meso explosion is worth when comes to dpm (at hihg lvs at least).
     
  6. Fraiche
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    Fraiche Pac Pinky Retired Staff

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    I'm happy with buffing Elquines dpm, and maybe range and freeze duration too. But don't buff Ifrit because I/Ls are :vomit: hehe
     
  7. OP
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    KurayamiLove
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    KurayamiLove Skelegon

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    If we get a Elquines buff we gotta buff all sumons, Ifrit usefulness is meh would be cool if it did more too, same with Bahamut Phoenix, Frostprey, maybe even the octopy (still hit 1 mob but make it attack more often).
     
  8. OP
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    KurayamiLove
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    KurayamiLove Skelegon

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    Just had a random thought o.o what if we remove the damage overtime from Fire and Ice demon and we make it affect bosses? Would alow for funy combos between mages and Paladin. Also the effect could stay for some time o.o
    Could even make all bowmen cleavers on HT XD if they add crits to inferno and blizzard. Combo the thwo archmages to cleave HT o.o. Effect should be like 120 seconds at max lv
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019
  9. Lidas
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    Lidas Mixed Golem

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    nice idea. will give them more reason to do boss runs. but do we want mages at boss runs? they still got the best mobs skills..
     
  10. Fraiche
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    Fraiche Pac Pinky Retired Staff

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    I think we should stop with the idea that mages shouldn't be encouraged to be at boss runs. I mean, bossing classes have rather easy access to the entire game content, while mages except bishops are somewhat limited to "mobbing content". Where's the fairness in that? Yes, TECHNICALLY mages can do boss runs, but let's be real most parties would rather save splits than invite a mage unless you're buddies. The ability for mages to access boss content should be as difficult/easy as it is for bossers to access "mobbing content", otherwise it's unbalanced and yall will have no right to say "mages shouldn't do boss runs because we're good mobbers". And the truth is it IS unbalanced. Throw in some elemental immunity and mages are even more limited in content. It's sad because bossing is a huge part of endgame content. I mean look at Neo Tokyo, the content is made entirely for bossing classes...
    Honestly I'm tired of this excuse
     
    • Like Like x 4
  11. OP
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    KurayamiLove
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    KurayamiLove Skelegon

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    You can boss as a mage and I think an archmage at HT can do a lot. NT bosses are weird o.o: Vergamot is ok for any class I think altho it favors hero and paladin. If you are melee at Dunas prepare yo be dispelled every fecking second so if you melee there is to keep dunas away from the ranged. Nibergen is ok not much to say, Magic mobster does so much damage I think Melee and Mages dont have to fear that much. Also I think 3 out of the 4 NT bosses are weak to lighting (good news to I/L). Overall I think they are pretty decent at bossing just well you know THE META where ppl look the best of the best when comes to bossing. I had a F/P bossing friend and she did pretty well. If we need to tune up the mages 1vs1 skills would have to look at the damage they deal for now I think the speed is pretty decent, Also atm I'm more concern about shadowers bossing capabilities
     
  12. Fishy
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    Fishy Skelegon Retired Staff

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    -Bonzaitree runs all bosses on her I/L :) , and she does alot of DPM.
    -Dunas has DR (but its wep DR) so mages can hit Dunas and not get affected by DR
    -Nameless magic monster is weak to lightning
    -Vergamot is weak to lightning
    -HT has 8 body parts, so Blizzing the whole run, you inflict alot of damage. While attackers focus the right side,the mage is hitting the left side as well. all the -DPM stacks and does make a difference.
    -Zakum arm runs go from 10mins --> 5minutes all becuase of an Arch Mage

    people just prefer "bossing classes" on boss runs. iirc, mages were in all boss runs 8 years ago.
     
  13. firesarrow
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    firesarrow Chronos

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    Exactly
     
  14. OP
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    KurayamiLove
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    KurayamiLove Skelegon

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    This is weird since other skills with a charge bar doesn't have this issue and I have tested them. Corkscrew Blow form Buccaneer, Big Bang from Mages and Monster Magnet from Warriors. I would say it a bug, and if it's a feature it must be removed o.o
     
  15. asdfjkliang
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    asdfjkliang Selkie Jr.

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    Just a random thought and Im not sure if anybody said it yet, but for Stun Mastery for Buccaneers, maybe add another secondary passive effect where there is a critical % that happens on bosses only.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  16. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Stun Mastery is one of those skills that look great but doesn't come in until it's almost useless, which is really sad. To stun you need to be using the Backspin Blow or Double Uppercut but there's not a very big time-frame where you'd be using those as you'd probably only get Stun Mastery at level 10x+. Shortly after that you start investing in Dragon Strike and Barrage and with Dragon Strike you're unlikely to go from 3-4ko to 2-3ko on most mobs if you stun them first, you're usually better off with another DS rather than Backspin Blow to stun 3 of them for more damage. Or if you're still killing Mannequins Dragon Strike will 1ko without them being stunned.

    On bosses it's useless, so it doesn't help with Barrage or Demolition for the most part.

    Maybe give the skill a small chance to stun mobs with any skill(20%? 30% maybe?) along with giving the extra damage on bosses.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. shot
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    shot Capt. Latanica Retired Staff

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    Buccaneer here~
    Stun mastery is not that useless actually. Sure, it does not affect against bosses but for training high HP monsters like from shaolin or nt, the skill comes in pretty handy especially when you find a bm/mm that you can train with because it stacks with SE. Combine that with snatch or backspin, this essentially doubles your damage output, making those mobs fairly easy to kill.
     
  18. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    That actually sounds really fun, I wanna make another Bucc now. SlimeCry

    Still seems a little difficult to pull off though. It sucks that the best skill for stunning a mob only hits 3 dudes. Or does Snatch stun too? Does it still require Super Transform? Buccs are complicated. I don't recall the stun lasting too long either, probably long enough to use DS twice? Maybe 3 times? Roughly I imagine you can cast DS 4 times and Backspin Blow 2 times in the time it takes to cast DS 5 times, so there'd definitely be an improvement if SE is involved but off the top of my head it feels like it would be pretty close damage-wise without SE if you have to spend the time to cast a weaker skill that effects fewer mobs.

    For large kill piles I imagine it would make a big difference, like at 7f gathering them up(It's so satisfying too hunnngh) but if there's only 6 mobs in your pile I don't think it really matters if you kill 1-3 of them 1 attack quicker. You'd still be left with killing the rest of them with another cast. I think that's one of the main issues with high variable damage with general mobbing, you're still casting the same number of times, it's just that a few of them die quicker. If there's a large pile though, like 8+, it does make a difference because you're hitting new ones quicker. It's why I don't really care for SE on a bishop, rarely are there more mobs on the screen than the 15 Genesis deals with. If it KO's a few of them quicker then you still need to cast it again to kill more of them.

    Against infinite mobs it makes a lot of sense but rarely do we get to see that, too often there's just 4-6 mobs in front of a player and time spent gathering them up could be time spent killing. It's a difficult balance.

    7f is pretty killer though, gathering them all in a pile is so much fun, and usually better exp for me too. It being a small map and using a Polearm where fish spawn makes it so satisfying.
     
  19. OP
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    KurayamiLove
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    KurayamiLove Skelegon

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    Stun Mastery is ok when comes to mobbing, altho I havent used it myself that much at hihg level. I didnt had shaolin but now that high hp mobs are a thing you can use that to kill them faster.
    Is useless at bossing but if we want to implement a pasive crit to buccaneer we need to be careful. Watching my damage on se and stun mastery barrage last hits can reach huge numbers without apple, landing a cap damage on last hit is easy and the 5th hit can easily pass the 100k, regular hits doing around 50-60k if crit (is not hard to crit when the chance without se is already 60%).
    Im not sure if a pasive crit with the stats of Stun Mastery would make Buccaneer as broken as NL when comes to single target damage (Need to do numbers) but the damage increase would be masive, being able to easily do 500k dmg per barrage if apple and se. Demolition could reach also on se and apple 100k+ per hit also.
    I dont think this skill will be changed but if it would go down to be just crit punch we need to lower a bit its damage
     
  20. OP
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    KurayamiLove
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    KurayamiLove Skelegon

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    It would be cool and I think I sugest it to increase the targets to 6 on both corkscrew and and backspin.
    Snatch stuns and was buffed to being able to be spamed, with SE you can do masive damage to 6 mobs during super transform (Also this skill is fairly fast).
     
    • Agree Agree x 1

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