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Skill Changes to Buff Hero and DK as an Attacker

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Kirisame, May 17, 2024.

  1. Kirisame
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    Kirisame Slimy

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    Background
    Currently, DK and Hero are not good boss attackers because lacking of cleaving contents.
    Adding new content or reworking existing bosses to be more cleave-friendly may require a lot of design and dev works.
    Meanwhile, these warrior skills are quite useless right now. Because they are easily replaceable by [​IMG] Dispel. And Bishops are almost garanteed to be in a bossing party.
    • [​IMG] Armor Crash (Hero)
    • [​IMG] Power Crash (DK)
    • [​IMG] Magic Crash (Paladin)

    Proposal
    We can have have some skill changes to buff DK and Hero as an attacker. While keeping their cleaving identity.

    Skill changes
    • [​IMG] Armor Crash (Hero): self buff, your attacks can ignore weapon cancel for a success rate X%, lasting Y seconds, cooldown Z seconds.
    • [​IMG] Power Crash (DK): self buff, your attacker will be converted to magical damage for a success rate X%, lasting Y seconds, cooldown Z seconds.
    • [​IMG] Magic Crash (Paladin): not decided yet.
    Explanation
    This change is equivalently allowing Hero and DK to ignore Weapon Cancel for a certain amount of ratio.

    Why self buff?
    To prevent mules. Also prevent them to become a "must-have" in some bosses.

    Single target scenario
    Hero and DK are not good at single target DPM. In bosses like Zak body or HT prehead, they can now attack for longer time to compensate their DPM.

    Multi-target scenario
    Hero and DK are good at 2-3 target DPM. In bosses like HT body, they can now hit 2 heads more often despite one of the head may being in cancel.

    Scenarios without weapon cancels
    Obviously, not affected.

    DK magic attack, seriously?
    DK can't really zerk in PB body (the traditional zerk). Converting it to magic attack is another way to make DK do "zerk" damage in PB body (strong against physical).
    It's also a unique way to ignore Weapon Cancel. Although it will be affected by Magic Cancel in the cleaving scenario.

    Credit
    I was inspired by discussions under this thread
    https://forum.maplelegends.com/index.php?threads/remove-cancels-from-single-target-bosses.54036/
     
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  2. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    pb is strong against neutral element and reflects both so it doesn’t matter

    also damage buff of this scale need to consider past changes for a small enough X, small enough Y, and large enough Z or it will likely have to be accompanied with some nerf to non cancelled damage.
     
  3. Endorphinss
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    Endorphinss Pac Pinky

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    i wouldnt like to see this changes. Many bosses has defense buff now that hero can cancel, thus providing additional utility to the team. Drks use power crush to minimize chances of dying to certain bosses while zerking (cwk bosses, HT, maybe more). Giving up on these for a X% chance to maybe hit during cancels is not worth it and overall not addressing the actual problems (at least in my opinion). These are not "easily replaced" by dispell, i havent seen anyone use a bsp to dispell coreblaze, d2, dunas, warrior cwk boss etc

    Also, im getting kinda tired of the many claims that heroes are not good at single target dpm. Since the panic rework the single target dpm can be increased up to 1.5m dpm if you use it fluently with buffs (probably ~1m extra with just si). Im not claiming heroes have the best single target dpm, or can be compared with NLs, but the current state is really good and not as horrible as people keep mentioning, forcing it look like theres a problem.
    You wanna get higher dpm as a hero? dont be lazy, use panic. maybe even get a si mule it will significantly increase your dmg. get better gear and trust me you will white some NLs along the way too. SPECIALLY in bosses like zak, where in third body you can face tank, ignore all stuns/skill blocks, get consistent dmg. i swear whiting zak as a high level decently geared hero is really doable.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2024
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  4. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    I agree that OPs suggestion isn't it, but let us know when you run something a bit higher than zak Foxpat
     
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  5. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    I think the play is to push for changes to auf (to make it rewarding to run and indirectly buffing cleave), and wait patiently for von leon to be released (which should be cleave content).

    In the meantime, all the warrior players can reroll to nightlords so that they are not constantly left out of single target boss runs.
     
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  6. Subterlabor
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    Subterlabor Headless Horseman

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    Having a hero in HT when the bishop dies/dcs is invaluable with LA def up.

    There is also 2 flaws with Drk's, one being the lack of cleaving, and 2nd being the horrendous QoL that is zerking. I genuinely believe zerk needs to be removed entirely or scale much sooner before it becomes an attractive class.

    It would be interesting to see something like how Heal works for clerics

    Single target 140% damage
    2 targets 100% damage
    3 targets 80% damage

    This way they maintain their cleave identity and dpm, while still getting significant single target buffs to be comparible with equivelant range dpm.
    (This is just an example I dont know the actual multipliers)

    In addition to this a respectible avoid buff may also contribute to the drk QoL, but zerk dpm still needs to be achieved much earlier/removed.

    This change would simply make it so drks/heros lose their "micro breaks" during prehead cancel, zak cancel and wouldnt really make them a desireable class when basically any other class will still outdpm them overall.
     
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  7. Tarnished
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    Tarnished Selkie Jr.

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    Dispel has smaller range and it's attached to a squishy mage. AC is Hero's main niche in end game, changing it to a self-damage boost is a huge nerf unless somehow that damage boost were astronomical

    In isolation, Hero is pretty strong and capable of good damage output. The main affliction against Hero is that Pally exists. They share a lot of the same skills, have very similar playstyle, and literally have the same gear and NX costs. Afaik the only advantage Hero has over Pally that can't be overcome with levels and gear is Armor Crash and HT heads, so choosing Hero is a tough proposition for anyone interested in building a Warrior. But at the same time, because they're so similar, even minor tweaks to stats could easily flip the equation where Hero is way better than Pally. These 2 classes need more distinction in their purpose.

    DK has a lot of room to be buffed in terms of damage output, but imo changing their QoL is a tricky proposition as their APM requirement is the only thing that distinguishes DK from Hero with a Spear

    In the bigger picture, all warriors among most other attackers face the same extinction threat where they don't have the same scaling potential as meta-favored classes, and that's almost entirely due to washing, avoid, and multi-attacking - issues that have no simple solution. Most players aren't going to stick around long enough for any of this to even matter, but the mere existence of the end game meta is enough to alter player perception. It's hard to balance around perception though
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2024
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  8. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    Warriors are easy to wash and have stance which is just a bad version of but still comparable to avoid. I'd say iframes > avoid > shifter > stance but it still allows them to output higher share of dummy dpm. Hero or DK in vanilla is supposed to be stronger than Paladin but somehow we buffed them so much on this server that they outshine their counterparts.

    If DK even needs a damage buff, it is because we are comparing to Paladins, who benefit from elemental advantage from most bosses excluding HT. Otherwise their problem is still survivability. They aren't in PB not because they lack damage but because most DK players can't control their characters and end up dead. When they die, their entire party sinks with them as soon as HB runs out. This forces DK players by necessity to play more conservatively than they otherwise would like which is why damage looks so low.

    edit: o ya paladin/hero are next candidates for multiattacking
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2024
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  9. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    I agree, I believe that situations with multiple mobs that have dispel threatening the survival of mages is good for the hero to shine, regarding von leon, I saw on a competing server that the way it was implemented is bad for ranged because the animal is very wide (except Corsair)
     
  10. Tarnished
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    Tarnished Selkie Jr.

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    I'm a little surprised this isn't more popular. Maybe 1 Hero is the butt of many memes, but 2 Heroes is an entirely different animal
     
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  11. Gurk
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    Gurk Headless Horseman

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    upload_2024-5-17_18-10-5.png
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2024
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  12. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    I believe that the cwk is a bit "off meta" because the "pre boss" is a little too long and not as dynamic, but I did a cleave duo with my friend's pally (he used little gear), and it was very fast, I believe that if one day this becomes more dynamic 2 heros/dk/maybe pally will be worth alot
     
  13. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    Selection bias. The kind of player who chooses to main a hero is probably not the kind of player willing to sweat and dual attack.
     
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  14. TennGohan
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    TennGohan Brown Teddy

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    The server killed melee classes when they changed ht sed 4 years ago. There have been dozens of great balance suggestions related to making ht cleave friendly or buffing cleave classes in the past 4 years but staff have done absolutely nothing to implement these changes (other than minor changes like head cleaving which had no change in the ht scene). With how mature the sever is now, its clear to me that the staff's vision is that all non-nl classes are just there as beginner/fun/nostalgia classes, if you want to make a serious bossing class it has to be nl. I mean everyone has already rerolled into a washed nl, most people on the recruit channel are nls now. And I think there's nothing wrong with that, anyone can make a nl and we all have the same barriers so its completely fair imo. It's time we moved on from these silly balance threads that are not aligned with the staff/server's vision.

    The other day I had a thought, the staff should just give se to bishops, and then delete all classes other than nl/bish lol. This way no-one will have to suffer by choosing the wrong class, aka non-nl. Alternatively, they could just delete nls, but that isn't the identity of this server.
     
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  15. Endorphinss
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    Endorphinss Pac Pinky

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    I've only mentioned zak because thats what is talked about in the post. How higher do you wanna go?cwk/HT/core/auf? Most of the higher level content is also suitable and decent for heroes. I dont understand the attitude.
     
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  16. CauTion
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    CauTion Timer

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    Same same, but i guess ppl care if you good in PB or not ,the most overated boss in the game .
    i was witness to a 10m single target hero dpm, stop cry and build you char hero is the best cleave in the game with a good single target dpm and a defence crusher that really help all party in NT and so , and all of that is with afk playatyle and you put it in the same spot as DK ?
     
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  17. Gurk
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    Gurk Headless Horseman

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    Thread seems to have taken a turn but as Tarnished has already mentioned, the biggest detriment to playing hero is that pally exists.

    In what context is hero cleave or crash utility meaningfully relevant such that an equivalent pally doesn't nonetheless obsolete them? CWK cleave and D2.

    Can anyone really carve out a good faith argument backed by sound reasoning for why someone should make a hero instead of a pally, other than the fact that a luk hero makes for a pretty decent mule?
     
  18. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    shout has good drop rates
     
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  19. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    The only thing I can think of is that Heroes are more or less immune to the whims of BT in terms of future content and adjusting current content. Paladin balance revolves entirely around what BT decides to add ele weakness and resist to, and there’s no guarantee that future iterations of BT do not arbitrarily decide to add or take away relevant resists and weaknesses.
     
  20. Endorphinss
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    Endorphinss Pac Pinky

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    Is there any DPM comparison between pallys and heroes? dont recall seeing one, so i cant imagine how different the single target dmg is, it cant be that high to make heroes obsolete (in case it really is higher and not equal or neglegable)
    hero cleave and crash utillity is meaningfully relevant in zak arms/scarga/cwk/jc/HT heads/core/auf
    if you add shout, which is a slightly worse version of hammer but still very useful, heroes can have decent mob control in other NT content such as berga/nib/core
    again, i dont recall seeing dpm difference between the classes, so besides being able to pin 100% i cant say with confidence that hero is obsolete compared to pallys.

    Also what will be your suggestion to fix the issue? if i catch your drift, to make heroes non obsolete they should have higher single target dmg than pallys (or equal), making pallys the 100% pin warrior class and heroes the less reliable pin but higher dpm. To do that without affecting cleave dmg is to revert the panic nerf introduced in the panic reword. I dont know how much it will help (damage cap) but its an option i guess.

    Keep in mind that not everyone is looking for the optimal gameplay and some will prefer the identity and gamestyle of heroes
     
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