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Remove cancels from single target bosses

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by kalash, May 17, 2024.

  1. kalash
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    kalash Headless Horseman

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    10:20 PM
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    Single target bosses like zakum, krexel, horntail preheads, (targa/scarlion), etc.

    The cancels are just a waste of time. Sure it gives you some time to charge your assassinate or rebuff, but being able to attack for 5 seconds and then having to wait for 30 seconds again has nothing to do with challenge (other than trying to not kill yourself).

    Please, for the love of god, just increase these bosses' max hp and remove all cancels.

    In bosses like horntail main body I think it's actually quite a good mechanic. It forces you to adjust your strategy to optimize through the cancels.

    PS. Cancels take so long that I was able to write this entire post during the first 10% of prehead hp because it cancelled THAT much.

    PPS. I know this has been suggested before, but the "fix" that should make cancels more "fair" seems to have poofed a while ago.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2024
    • Agree Agree x 14
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  2. OP
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    kalash
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    kalash Headless Horseman

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    Same also kinda counts for damage reflect. Just make it last a few seconds. That's where it kills people. The rest is just waiting for your life to slowly pass by.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
  3. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    ItzLeo
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    In my opinion, a good damage reduction during "wc" or passing some hits, for example, blocks 85% of hits, would be a huge advantage
     
  4. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Moderator Post
    Personally I don't really mind cancels but I can see why people dread them.

    If you were to increase the maxHP as you proposed so average clear time would remain similar then isn't the only thing that you'd achieve is that you can no longer use cancels to write on the forums, increase the usage and costs of projectiles and classes like shadowers for example who can use cancels to their advantage will do less relative dpm to their counterparts.

    What is ultimately the goal of removing them? Is it just to feel like one has something meaningful to do?
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 2
  5. Kmac
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    Kmac Horny Mushroom

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    Frequent WC can be frustrating but if we remove this mechanic and increase boss HP to compensate then in theory boss run times won’t change much.

    All this change does is reduce the downtime in a fight where majority of classes are operating in a “hold this button until you need to reposition” fashion anyway. Why is a bit of downtime such a bad thing? As you said it’s a convenient opportunity to rebuff, or maybe drink some water, chat in game, reply to a text, change the TV channel etc.

    Most mid-game bosses (especially the ones you mentioned) are fights that don’t require much focus as it is and turning them into 25+ minute onslaughts without any downtime actually sounds worse than dealing with a stubborn Zakum who WC’s a lot, imo. Removing WC just makes these boss fights even more afk than they already are.

    This suggestion would also be a nerf for active shadowers and they aren’t exactly a meta defining class that’s in need of nerfs. I could be onboard with reducing WC/DR duration for select bosses but removing it altogether seems a bit much
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    people like huge dpm prints on forum kekw
     
  7. TennGohan
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    TennGohan Brown Teddy

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    Make it so wc only applies to nls.
     
    • Creative Creative x 3
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  8. HarleyEllis
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    HarleyEllis Pac Pinky

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    Krex has the objectively correct length cancels. Complete removal also will assure unceasing shadower riots this is a threat
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  9. Krythan
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    Krythan Headless Horseman

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    Let Hero's use their 3rd job "Armor Crash" to dispel the weapon cancel! Encourages some degree of active gameplay with the cancel mechanic, and adds a very valuable niche for Heros in the meta (without any other changes to DPS or class balance)
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
  10. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    dk crash then
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Krythan
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    Krythan Headless Horseman

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    I could see adding that ability to Hero's "Armor Crash" and DK's "Power Crash". Would give each of those classes a small buff in the meta. Then you can make Paladin's "Magic Crash" just work on magic cancel... which actually balances out nicely... as magic cancel crashing wouldn't be nearly as impactful... and that's ok, because Paladin's are currently in a better spot vs. Heros/DKs
     
  12. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Horntail

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    the sadly thing, is buff this kind of skill just bring more mulables char, but, as i see people need hb and maybe it can be win-win
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. OP
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    kalash
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    kalash Headless Horseman

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    What this would achieve is that you'd have "equal" extended runs on all runs. Having back-to-back weapon cancels is way worse than adding 1/3 extra hp.
    Supposedly a mob should be in weapon cancel about 1/3 of the time. If you're unlucky, it'll be more like 50% or sometimes even 75%. I'd take 33% extra runtime any day over having to wait and do nothing, with a chance of an extra 50-75% runtime.

    IMHO not removing a bad mechanic because 1 class may not be well balanced is a terrible reason.
    That being said, a reduction in the time cancels last would already do a lot.

    Would you not rather feel like you're doing something meaningful as opposed to being forced to wait? In the end the whole point of a game is having fun, so feeling you're doing something meaningful (within the pixelated limits) should be pretty important.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2024
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  14. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    Maybe at the very least some good/bad luck protection could be considered? Each time a monster does a successive cast of the same cancel or reflect, it’s slightly less likely it’ll do it again, stacking with each cast.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  15. Gurk
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    Gurk Headless Horseman

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    Hero, Bishop, Marksman, Shadower, Buccaneer, Corsair
    #removecancelsfrompreheads
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 1
  16. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    [​IMG]

    Top group is what currently goes on rotation.
    Bottom group is what implementing two new states - Weapon Defense and Magic Defense - would do for the rotation and damage uptime. Obviously not perfect, but it gives a general idea of how things could look.

    If implemented in things like Horntail, it'd be a cleave buff.
     
    • Creative Creative x 4
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    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Kirisame
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    Kirisame Slimy

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    Make it consume combo orbs, and add a cooldown, just like bubble for TL.
    Also consider make it an active buff to prevent out-of-party mules.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  18. CaptainNemo
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    CaptainNemo Slimy

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    The most toxic WC boss isn't being spoken of here, Pianus.

    Recommend add a minimum 30 second cooldown from when cancel ends before Pianus can cancel again. No boss should be able to consistently sit in WC/MC for multiple minutes at a time.
     
    • Agree Agree x 14
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  19. Tommygunner
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    Tommygunner Selkie Jr.

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    i like this idea the most. something like, attack 100 or whatever number of times to charge this skill up to use it.

    edit: OR make it like Blind and you have to constantly attack in order to PREVENT WC? just throwing ideas around
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2024
  20. Milkydoor
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    Milkydoor Timer

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    attacking a cancel should heal the boss instead - imagine how spicy vc would get !!
     
    • Great Work Great Work x 5
    • Creative Creative x 3

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