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State of archers

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by TORONTOTOKYO, Jun 8, 2023.

Which is the stronger archer now?

  1. Marksman

    26 vote(s)
    27.1%
  2. Bowmaster

    44 vote(s)
    45.8%
  3. SAME!

    26 vote(s)
    27.1%
  1. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Skelosaurus

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    How much would you guess the best NLs and MMs do for PB body?
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2023
  2. Esmo
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    Esmo Pac Pinky

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    last time I did crimson wood partyquest the lv 181 mm couldn’t hold the pirate and I was salty and toxic towards them :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2023
    • Great Work Great Work x 6
  3. Toon
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    Toon Capt. Latanica

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    What makes you think that 4.5-4.6m on pb body is low dpm? That`s only 10% less than top tier NL. That`s the trade of having the best party bonus available.


    MMs have almost the same potential on body nowadays, considering end game gear from both. Every 4.6-4.7m + dpm from MM are inflated from pierce arrow on mini beans, damage that is redundant.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    For a class that's designed to excel with high attack pots (as implied with the fastest attack speed), it's a meme that they're not top performers on the only content that requires apples due to being impacted the most directly from the counterdesign of the fight (high defense, damage reduction). Nevertheless, they're still a really good class as they offer SE + top tier dpm in one package, and the last few changes like the sed notes dropping on both sides heavily favor BM over other classes. In fully optimized comps, unfortunately, top tier still tends to lose out to the very top, and SE can always be muled.

    And it's pretty easy to argue that damage on minibeans is still extremely valuable for the overall run speed, even with mages.
     
  5. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Skelosaurus

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    To be fair, BMs seem to outperform MMs for the most part by 10% on statues at high end gear and skill levels. I think the 10% damage trade off on body for statue DPM is more than worth it given statue actually matters and body is memes
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    What are your thoughts on MMs performing >25% better on cider?
     
  7. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Skelosaurus

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    Unless hosts change apple usage policy it's mostly irrelevant
     
  8. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    I can see a future where runs clear with minimal apple usage past statues, and BMs become meme damage for body.
     
  9. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    The main principle that determines whether or not using an apple is worth it is whether the time (or extra playerS) saved from using the apple is worth more than the cost of the apple. In a content like pink bean, where the average kill is worth around 2b, its always worth it to use the apple.

    Your hypothetical minimal apple runs may end up existing, but the players on that run would make less mesos than a competing full apple run (that has less runners due to the extra damage of full apple).
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    While this is true, I think the priority list goes 1) clear consistency 2) expense optimization 3) composition optimization. The problem is #3 can cause changes to both #1 and #2, most impacted during the statues phase, so it gets harder to justify shifting #3 too drastically. The general fight breakdown is 1/3 statues 2/3 body, and the minimum number of people required to clear statues is the same as the number of people required to clear body. Your suggestion would shift the fight to be 1/2 statue and 1/2 body entirely on apple, which poses a big risk if anything were to go wrong in any part of the fight. Of course, this could change in the future with developments like multiattacking, but if I had to guess, most groups would be happier with runs that are stable, consistent, and cheaper with a slightly smaller payout over the less stable, less consistent, and more expensive runs with a higher payout.
     
  11. Toon
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    Toon Capt. Latanica

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    I’m not sure BM > MM on statues tho
     
  12. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Skelosaurus

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    At high range BM should be outperforming MM
     
  13. Toon
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    Toon Capt. Latanica

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    I tend to believe that too. However, i’d like to know for sure how defense works against strafe x hurricane. There is a chance the natural lower range of BM getting more affected by wep def than MM, making MM better on actual situations besides dummy’s. However, that wouldn’t mean a high difference anyways. The classes are pretty much balanced
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Skelosaurus

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    WDef does hurt BM much more than MM but WDef also isn't immensely impactful during statues. I agree though the classes are balanced. People forget how insanely busted Hamstring is and how well BMs perform in CWK/Nameless/BGA vs MMs and only look at the damage.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. OP
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    TORONTOTOKYO
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    TORONTOTOKYO Windraider

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    BM->hamstring
    MM->damage
    TLDR
     
  16. Subterlabor
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    Subterlabor Wolfspider

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    hamstring is super effective on stationery bosses f3
     
  17. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Skelosaurus

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    Honestly, I don't really get why you say sarcastic statements like this and
    and inflammatory statements like
    but when other people make sarcastic statements, they're being toxic? You're being just as sarcastic and dismissive as anyone else is.

    Hamstring is legitimately a powerful tool that pretty much any BM that has ever run Nameless, Dunas 2, BGA, Anego, Bigfoot, CWKPQ, Samurai, Pap, hell even Auf agrees is important enough that you would often bring a weaker BM over a stronger MM in most of those fights. I'm not sure if you've ever tried watching an MM try to pin Pirate in CWK or try to attack Nameless as an underwashed ranged without Hamstring, but it's miserable. It ruins the experience for everyone else, to the point where any perceived damage advantages MMs have in those fights (which is non existent since Hamstring turns them into dummy DPM fights) is irrelevant.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Subterlabor
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    Subterlabor Wolfspider

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    Hamstring is very powerful/useful in the right content I can agree, but bigfoot, anego, bga, pap, and JC is not "endgame" content. Nameless, dunas, Auf can't mention since I don't run it. True dpm matters in HT+PB imo since that is where you need to carry your weight to run smaller parties (6man/18man) in which case Hamstring being "powerful therefore no other buffs should be allowed" is a mute argument to me. -Most- content you don't even need hamstring, it just makes the pinner's life a little easier so they can focus more on dpm.
     
  19. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Skelosaurus

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    BGA, the level 170+ boss that most players don’t run until 190, isn’t endgame content?

    I would consider myself probably one of most “endgame” BMs on the server right now and Nameless and CWK are both part of my ideal daily rotation, as would BGA if I could find other strong duo attackers. I’m not sure why they wouldn’t be considered endgame content, when they definitely are.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. pharaoh
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    pharaoh Master Chronos

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    BM->hamstring, damage, and buff independence
    MM->
     
    • Agree Agree x 4

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