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Thoughts and suggestions on washing mechanic

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by kickserve, Jan 8, 2021.

  1. kickserve
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    I know this is a heavy debated topic but I just wanted to chime in for a few of my thoughts.

    Here are a few commonly seen arguments against removing HP washing mechanic:
    1. It is not fair to players that has already done it.
    2. V62 isn’t meant to have characters that has high hp.
    3. HP washing isn’t hard to do.
    my views on these are:
    1. This is classic sunken cost fallacy, just because it was done this way and people already sunk their time doing it doesn’t mean it is a good mechanic, I am sure there will be ways to amend/reimburse players that did it before.
    2. Just because the Neckson game designers didn’t give classes higher hp doesn’t mean we should follow their lead without questioning it. When the base stats increase were created back in 2001, I doubt many of the designers had HT/PB in mind as they didn’t exist. They amended this in official servers by removing the HP washing mechanic as a way to amend their error.
    3. HP washing isn’t hard as characters can be leeched, but if we are trying to create the best playing experience and value our customers’ precious time, why would we make them jump through hoops to enjoy the game? Sure if they love to multiclient leech they are still free to do so, but if they want to level up and hunt and quest the way this game is intended, they shouldn’t have to pay a penalty of having way less than optimal damage and spend more time just so we can keep HP wash mechanic.

    Now I want to tackle a few topics from the admin’s point of view:
    • HP washing means people have to vote to buy resets, vote makes our server high on the charts!
    Yes I agree we should keep voting and this server deserves to be on top of the charts. What if we introduce a way to keep both which I’ll get into a bit later.
    • Leeching and grinding with intlord/intmasters makes them have to play longer to level, keeping population high.
    Yes this is true but it is also a double edged sword as people might be burnt out easier plus it is just not a customer obsessed thing to do. We run private server to make our customers happy, they should be considered at highest level.

    Now to my half baked/need workshopped solution:
    • Allow HP washing up to a limit, players will be allowed to take out mp even at bottom of the cap to pump into HP. But there is a limit on how much HP each job can have, so if we determine 10k is when thieves can be played comfortably, then that is the max they can wash to at the lower bound of MP.
    • However, we keep the HP wash mechanic in, so if an intlord with 200 int has extra MP above the lower bound, they can keep washing to get even higher HP.
    This way we satisfy the players that wants to make intlords for that 20k HP but also don’t penalize casuals that doesn’t want to remake their level 120 character just because they don’t want to leech another same job to 120.

    Players still have to vote to buy the AP resets to “wash” to their HP cap so we cover that part of the equation as well.

    Again this is my opinions on HP washing, I get we like to be faithful to what v62 was, but I think we should take the good of the v62 but patch up the bad parts so our customers has the best experience they can get without diluting their game play!
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 3
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  2. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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  3. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    When comes to decisions from staffs in ML, i have noticed afew things.

    1. Old efforts MUST NOT BE NULLIFIED.
    2. Big rewards MUST come from big effort.
    3. Mules are allowed -> but must not replace mains (no DEX mules in HT).

    the main issue in HP in ML is being unable to join bosses when unwashed -> NOT when someone decides to pump 200 int and self-leech into 15k HP.
    if someone managed to wash a 30k HP as an NL, so be it. He made a big effort and thus it does not any go against any of the 3 pointers above.

    monster ring has been introduced to help out with HP issues. old efforts does not get nullified because everyone will have to start from scratch and 300 cards takes quite some time (5-10 min per card usually, for below blue tiers), fulfilling the 3 pointers.

    quest ring, i believed, is not considered because some players qualify for the final reward, hence will violate point 2. while there's a stat that said only 1 or 10% of the ML population qualify for it, personally i don't take that number considering that there are alot characters in ML are mules, with little mains.

    Back to washing:
    AloriaX, a lvl 200 NL, has washed with only about 600k-700k worth of NX, but with pets, equips, T10 rings, he managed to get hold of about 9.6k HP. Added with event rings, he got 10k+ HP.
    He is able to boss in PB, just have to be wary of a certain attack and dodge it.

    He put in alot of effort to get HP (outside of washing & resets), and is rewarded accordingly. Do anyone wants to do that? Yeah, maybe some might consider this path, but most wouldn't. This is not the kind of effort they are willing to take -> waiting for 1 year of voting, having 200 int, self-leech/buy leech, and farming event points is the effort most preferred.

    Personally, i believed another type of monster-ring kind type of HP resource is required, where big efforts will give u good amount of HP.
    Consider craft-only & untradable 'reverse capes'. Creating custom quest-lines that ask users to kill huge amount of monsters (the christmas's present paper mechanics should be used here so no helps from others), collect certain annoying untradable items (rav helm I/II/III, BFC, crimsonheart cloak?, arwen glass shoe?), and perhaps kill certain bosses. Maybe also include Piece of Time to keep in-line with other reverse items.
    Cape should have HP, MP, at least 5 WA, MA and some stats, and item leveling should not include WA to prevent devaluing of CSed PGCs.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. OP
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    I agree with your 3 points on what the stance of the staff seems to be.

    Which is why I addressed point 1 in the original post as sunk cost fallacy, because people already made the effort then the game simply cannot remove the mechanic. But this comes at the cost of customer’s enjoyment, as in I am sure most people will have a better time if they had 40/60/100 more main stat to see higher damage numbers when playing.

    As for point 2, yes big reward should be from big efforts, which is why the “allowed” washable limit I proposed should be carefully balanced and just enough to not lock players out of the content. While “big effort” (aka vote a year then leech to 150) is still rewarded with a much higher HP than the soft cap.

    As for the items that add HP. I don’t like adding a cape/hat/etc that adds a bunch of HP with the trade off of not able to wear their high cost PAC for example. After all MMO is about getting higher damage numbers which correlates to the happiness of majority of the players. It’ll be hard/not enjoyable to have to make the decision to have an inferior endgame cape just because we are unable to budge on a bad mechanic Neckson introduced and fixed already.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Hmm, I think my point wasn't explained clearly. Let me try again

    ^ Yes its true - HP Washing is a flawed mechanic, and I 100% agree on this point.

    ^ However, this is where u missed out the point. The problem right now, does not lie on having 30K HP NLs and BMs existing in the game, but rather, unwashed NLs and BMs have HPs that are too low for bossing. Why are u trying to make HP lower, rather den higher?

    If you are thinking of providing more HP washes per AP Reset used, then no. Not only will you violate old efforts, but old players do not benefit from this patch at all.

    ^ I'm proposing for a BFC upgrade, which contains WA by itself. PAC has a max stat of 4 WA, while not only BFC has a max stat of 5 wa, it contains 290-310 valuable HP. But people goes for PAC because its easier and tradable -> less effort in the long run. HP should take effort here, and if you decide not to put in the effort, you should not be rewarded for it.
     
  6. OP
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    kickserve
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    I guess I didn’t explain as clearly as well, my take is:

    For players that didn’t add to int: they can still add to HP (up to a cap amount determined by the balance team, eg 10k for thieves, 12k for archers as they have less avoid, just examples) then take out MP to put back to dex/luk, the MP will have a min value and won’t go below it even when taking out.

    For players with int: as long as their MP is higher than minimum they can add past the cap for HP. So effectively same hp wash mechanic as now.

    This change will address the fact players without int will be locked out of content while still give the same mechanic for people that wants to do it the old way.


    As for the cape/item change: I still don’t like it as it means classes such as thieves and archers need to make a sacrifice to work much harder for the new cape while mages and warriors can take the easy way of PAC and PGC
     
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  7. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    ^ I assume on this is, you can still continue washing if you hit the threshold of minimum MP, while actually not lose MP below the minimum MP threshold.
    While it will violate old efforts of 8k HP 200 INT NLs/BMs, i guess its up to the balance team to see if its ok for it -> Will probably need lower caps like 7-8k while getting you to scroll pets, do monster book ring and etc to make a clear effort rewarded between INT lords and non-INT lords.

    ^ Fair point, tho I'll say that warriors have inconvenience of not being able to use sorcerer elixirs, but thats for another time. MA in particular provides way lower value compared to WA, so imo it doesn't make that much sense -> the capes are aimmed at attackers anywz, most mages as of now do not get recruited for damage.

    But if capes are not a good option, den consider using xmas pendants like the one in this event :D
     
  8. OP
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    kickserve
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    Yes exactly, if they didn’t reach the soft cap HP they’ll be able to take out MP even if it is at lower cap. While once they get past the soft cap HP, they’ll only be able to take out from MP if they haven’t reached the lower cap.

    agree that there will be a difference between intlords and normal players, normal players should have the bare minimum (determined by balance team) with the help of some HP gear while intlords won’t need to worry about HP at all.
     
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  9. Voxtagrams
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    Voxtagrams Headless Horseman

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    Base 260 INT Night Lord, with about 55 INT in equips.
    (Make sure to get MW buffed)

    Reg washing > lose damage translate it all back slowly
    Double washing > lose damage translate it back quickly

    when you level do the following:
    1. 5 x fresh ap into mp
    2. get 5 ap resets (save up nx)
    3. -4mp +4 main stat
    4. -1mp +1hp.

    thereafter, you get ap resets daily and do:
    -1mp +1hp till you level.

    then you go back to step 1 again.

    HP washing is optional in the server, you don't have to if you don't want to but it just means that you can't do certain bosses, or get HP equips and HB.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. OP
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    Firstly do you think most players will have more fun with 200 main stat or 200 int and do very low damage?

    I totally understand that you are invested heavily into int and don’t like to see your hardship with leveling with 200int go to waste, but that doesn’t mean it is a good mechanic and everyone should suffer the same.

    I disagree with HP washing is optional statement as you literally contradicted yourself: you’ll be locked out of content if you don’t do it. Optional, think side quests in games, are choices that would affect the main story. I wouldn’t say endgame bosses is optional to any game we play.

    Ditch the sunk cost fallacy and you’ll realize you would had more fun if you had the extra main stat vs that 200 int requiring you to do low damage for 150 levels just so you can do end game bosses while they can’t, I would argue neither of you had the best possible experience with the game.

    It is like if you are playing the Spider-Man game and you have to choose between walking instead of swinging or you don’t get to see the ending. Neither option is good, you want to be swinging like Spider-Man and see the ending right?
     
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  11. Voxtagrams
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    Voxtagrams Headless Horseman

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    I'm from Saga and having the "HP washing optional" tag there had everyone including me not HP wash in that server, I got my Night Lord to level 129+ shown in this screenshot.
    Ronnie.png
    I never HP washed and being level 129+ i was able to enter in Scar/Targa but since I never washed and people knew that later on they invited me to raids less and soon after never at all.

    Fast forward to MapleLegends
    Screen Shot 2021-01-10 at 4.46.08 PM.png
    I'm not sure why I can't input the full client image like the one above for ML's client but this would have to do.

    My HP here is far more and I'm lower leveled, my LUK is high enough to deal enough damage to grind a bit with a Steel Titans.

    HP washing is 100% optional in the server because the server advertises that if you vote you'll notice its a tag there.

    However where you're saying that HP washing is diluting their game play I would have to say that is also false because what if the person doesn't have the mesos for funds to get up to a good enough to decent weapon that would dish out satisfying damage to their liking?

    HP washing gets removed, whats going to be next? Ask for better meso drop rate? Increase meso gains of mobbing? Have monsters drop Chaos Scrolls like they do in the original games? (Chaos Scrolls dropping does indeed sound boring, I'll agree)

    Now answering your Spider-Man reference, you attack Peter Parker's heart what happens? (I'm not really sure why the game didn't add this in they should have but here)
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  12. OP
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    kickserve
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    I am not asking any of those, farming for better gear is a part of any MMO and I am not asking for that. I am simply saying if the game designers intended on thief’s damage be based on luk and archers damage based on dex, they shouldnt have to pump a lot of int to play the game.

    The amount of Max HP you get per level up was determined when the game first came out without thinking about endgame bosses. When they got there they realized the issue and fixed it on the official servers. I get this is an nostalgia server but we should take the good and leave out the bad rather than stubbornly take it all with no consideration to the gameplay experience.

    yes you can grind a bit with your 260 int, but would you honestly say you rather do that if you didn’t have to HP wash? Just because it is advertised as optional doesn’t mean there are no consequences. Again optional should be side quests that doesn’t affect the main story, but if you are locked out of all the end game bosses I don’t think it should be advertised as optional. Also I don’t think I ever saw an server advertise it self as hp washing required.

    Again if you think majority of the players have more fun when they have 200 int and have trouble training at places that they were designed to train at, then we probably just have different definitions of good gameplay.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Personally I would disagree here because of Pinkbean. You can make any unwashed class (maybe except mage?) to 200, and he wont be able to take a single hit on Pinkbean -> Warriors are included. However, it is considered HP washing optional once, as HT was considered to be the endgame boss before PB came out.

    However that does not mean we should make HP easily accessible -> it should still be locked behind tremendous efforts. Being able to wash pass minimum mp, despite having those threshold, to me, is not enough effort to grant more HP.

    Fun here is pretty subjective. To me, having multiple mules and multi-clienting multiple buffs is not fun. Just because everyone else is making mages, and selling leech, doesn't mean I have to. I made a first-char Hero, and till now, not having played a single mage class.

    So whats my downside -> what do I lose? I'm incredibly poor, with barely 50m of mesos at lvl 142. Maybe its a mix of my bad spending habits and laziness to grind CDs & go bossing, but that alone should not excuse me from asking for new ways to earn mesos.

    So to route back to HP washing -> whats the main difference here between HP washing and my meso?

    On my mesos, given lots of time and patiences -> yes, I can get the mesos necessary to be strong enough, for all the contents available in MapleLegends.

    However, as a NL/MM/BM, as of now, its not yet possible. Hence I feel its necessary to add new ways to get HP -> where it will be so tough to obtain & deter INT Lords and classes who doesn't need it, but deemed necessary for non-washers to join PB

    Lastly, I would like you to read AloriaX's post and let me know what you think: https://forum.maplelegends.com/inde...s-strictly-nostalgic.35486/page-2#post-238713
     
  14. Voxtagrams
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    Voxtagrams Headless Horseman

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    • (Quote from kwanhua) Hp Wash concept was first developed by Tiger from Mapleglobal (Slaute all guys) and further tested out and improved by many guys including Tanyia from maplesea (bootes)(Sorry i can’t named one by one there is too much of you guys down there) and me. Hp washing refers to adding it Ap into hp. And then buy ap reset from cash shop. -mp and add the ap into the stats which you want. For eg if you are warrior you will – mp and add it to STR.
     
  15. OP
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    I didn’t say designers designed HP wash, I said they designed each class to use 1 of the 4 stat category as the main part of their damage range calculation.

    hp wash is even likely to be an unintended unforeseen bug.

    but either way if I am an game designer I wouldn’t want my customer to go through hp washing and my game will probably fail because of it. ML didn’t fail because we were most hooked before we even knew what hp washing was. People playing ML isn’t here because they love to HP wash I can guarantee you that!
     
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  16. Voxtagrams
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    Voxtagrams Headless Horseman

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    "he wont be able to take a single hit on Pinkbean"

    I know I've talked to Ethan in discord DMs about HP washing, hes the one that I ask for help for what I should do with my NL.

    Pink Bean has Damage Reflect which would deal 30k
    Pink Bean has Big Bang attack which would deal 18.9k
    Screen Shot 2021-01-10 at 5.44.59 PM.png
    Screen Shot 2021-01-10 at 5.50.07 PM.png

    Next
    Are you saying that Mages don't MP wash?
    Mages wash both MP and HP, they wash out for mana like normal get 30k MP then wash out mana in to HP until they have the target HP that they want so that they can tank HT tail or something.

    As for my Bishop I'm not going to boss with it, although I would try to get a pendant but I can just buy afk service.
     
  17. Voxtagrams
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    Voxtagrams Headless Horseman

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    I'm here for it though. <3

    Although maybe most won't be, and it might seem unbelievable to you but I enjoy it.
     
  18. OP
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    Interesting read, but sounds like he made due with the limitation rather than think hp wash is an enjoyable experience.
     
  19. OP
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    Sorry I guess I misspoke, There are outliers everywhere but I am definitely talking about the p50 rather than the p99.
     
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  20. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    No, im not saying mages don't MP wash. I'm not too familiar with mages therefore from my knowledge it might be possible for unwashed mages to take a PB with magic guard.
    But like I said, im not familiar with mages at all thus I don't want to give a confirmation.

    I would like to add that im not familiar with pinkbean's damage, but I do remember reading a 23k melee/touch damage somewhere.

    Regarding the big bang damage, if 18.9k is the highest threshold den with T10 rings and pet equips, I'll have to take back my words on warriors being unable to tank without washing
     
    • Informative Informative x 1

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