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Thoughts and suggestions on washing mechanic

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by kickserve, Jan 8, 2021.

  1. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    from what you have said in this thread, i assume enjoyable experience means having a easy-to-follow meta to you.

    While there is for warrior classes, unforunately there isn't one for ranged attackers, even if they completely fixed HP washing, due to the nature on big efforts require big rewards. Clutching on the limitations of this game, like AloriaX did, is and should be part of the effort of being HP Washing Optional.
     
  2. OP
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    kickserve
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    Well i am aiming to simply allow players to play the intended way without being locked out of content. If the game designers intended for archers to use dex as their main stat then they should not be punished when they add their stat into dex.

    enjoyable to me is a fluid gameplay and game design that make sense, such as adding to main stat to get stronger to tackle harder enemies. adding int into archer and thief so they can take advantage of an unadvertised mechanic/bug as a requirement isn’t what I consider good gameplay and good game design.

    And even AloriaX said, HP washing isn’t optional and it shouldn’t be advertise as so. It should only be advertised as so if it is optional for all classes.

    like the Spider-Man example, I want to swing like Spider-Man and fight the final boss. If people want to make it hard mode by walking to the boss instead of swinging all the power to them!
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  3. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Yes, thats why I agreed with u that there's a need for additional HP sources to make it HP-washing optional.
    However I do not agree with washing below the minimum MP threshold, as that does not include enough effort to obtain HP.
    I find HP as a valuable stats, therefore more effort should be put to obtain them. Monster Ring T10 to me, is a great example of large effort put in to obtain HP, and I wish to see similar ways used (in terms of effort) to obtain it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. OP
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    It is valuable stat and it does take a lot of effort (as in the hp washing mechanic is kept for players to go the extra mile) but the minimum hp is raised so no one will be gated.

    The 2 main reasons of my hp wash never gets touched are:
    1. People always wasted time doing it. We are allowing them to keep their higher HP but just adding to the minimum HP so people that didn’t wash don’t have to remake.
    2. AP resets drives daily votes on multiple accounts making ML higher on the GTOP site. This is why we still need people to sink their vote cash into boosting their HP or they’ll stop voting.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  5. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    It is alot of effort. But to prevent HP from being gated, you should not raise the minimum HP. Because it will make having the minimum HP lesser effort to achieve. Rather, more external items, in forms of rings, or end-game replacements should be used instead.


    On the first point, yes you are right. First, HP washing in general is a very time-consuming effort. And second, people who did not wash have to restart, hence wasting even more effort.
    Raising minimum HP gives a lazy, AND low-effort way for people to reach minimum HP for end game. Not enough effort is justified for the amount of HP they have gotten.
    Don't get me wrong, I definitely don't want remakes, but there should be an alternate way - where the effort is justified - for non-washers to hit minimum HP thresholds

    On the second point however, due to the subjective nature of if-you-don't-wash-you-are-screwed, this drives many players to vote for more than one account - some up to even 5 or 8 accounts.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. akashsky
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    akashsky Horntail

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    A warrior has to deal with touching pink bean at some point. However, warriors have Achilles (reduce all damage by 15%), so you would only need 12.75k HP before HB to tank pink bean touch damage.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. Alyosha
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    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

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    Fortunately Ariel is actually the highest damage attack you have to tank in PB at like 13k or something. I believe PB's stun attack is like 12k. Just ignore his Big Bang by standing on the other side if you don't have enough HP. There's a mad lad that camps PB at 1k HP to take less damage on his boat so it's technically possible to kill PB with minimal washing on a ranged character.
     
    • Informative Informative x 3
  8. Dance
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    Dance Stone Golem

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    Is it this person?

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    Not every ranged class. Marksman gets to choose between having more HP, being an SE mule without being able to use Snipe, or messing up the entire run by causing PB to face left frequently.
     
  10. OP
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    kickserve
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    I don’t agree with calling it “lazy and low effort” because by that logic making a warrior and mage is also lazy and low effort, should we give them lower base and force them to wash too? Every class should start on even ground aka enough hp amount determined by the ML balance team instead of Neckson developers that didn’t have a clue what bosses they were going to release when they first coded the hp increase per level amounts.

    anyways it seems that most people has made terms with hp washing and don’t really want to improve it judging by the responses/votes here. I really like the server due to amount of dev work and community management they put in. So I decided to just avoid this whole thing like you do by making a mage and warrior so I never have to deal with the hardcore hp washing classes.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    To certain extend, you are right. Washing warriors and mages in comparison to range classes can be pretty lazy and low effort. But the number of mages that went bossing as attackers, well, not alot, almost none.

    For warriors, it takes about 1m+ NX to hit the 30k HP threshold, usually takes about 1m NX, and for 18k HP threshold, 400k NX. This does not include resetting INT back to HP. But warriors requires way less INT, so in that sense, yes. Pretty low effort in comparison.

    But the DPM when comes to bossing is pretty low compared to ranged classes - NLs, BMs & MMs easily top the single target DPM, and that justifies the effort to me. To play the strongest classes it should take more effort (not necessary by voting & washing) to reach bossing potentials. Or you can clutch it out like how AloriaX and pre-PB washed class did.
     
  12. OP
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    I guess my point is: I don’t think hp washing is good design. I agree high DPS classes should have their drawbacks, but it should be a part of gameplay rather than just make them grind harder by voting and leeching.

    look at dark souls type of games that gets a lot of praise for their gameplay. every build has their advantages and disadvantages. Tanks can take more damage but they attack and move slower, lighter armor characters can move better but they can’t take as much damage.

    Warriors should be able to tank a couple more hits in trade they do less damage, but saying NL and BM deserve to have higher damage due to having to vote more and getting leeched to 150 isn’t good game design at all.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  13. Voxtagrams
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    Voxtagrams Headless Horseman

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    Well, to be fair HP washing wasn't introduced until around after when 4th job was created in the original servers because during those days Zakum and Papulatus were the "Endgame" bosses and the developers didn't think that people would achieve higher levels

    https://forums.mapletip.com/index.php?/topic/84991-4th-job-release-dates/

    I've been a LoOpEdd fanboy and followed his style of gameplay, but as shown here Loopedd - Broa - Hermit lvl134 (4th job not being released yet)


    But later on 2 years passed


    I've copied his look for quite a while
    maple.png

    But then a few people kept calling me Looped so i changed my look lol
    maple-1.png
    The main purpose of HP washing came into play later on because other bosses came out so Tiger came up with equations I have no idea.

    I do understand that HP washing is very expensive and time consuming, but being in a v.62 that its sort of a "heavy wash" server but it is optional people just wash to be more comfortable.

    It's up to you how you want to enjoy the game, don't let HP washing discourage you from not enjoying it.

    It wasn't intended the game is still very playable without washing as Ethan(AioriaX) has done.
     
  14. OP
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    kickserve
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    Look I get it, you like hp washing. Your point is exactly why it is still in this server: we are a v62 server so we are going to keep everything even if Neckson fixed it afterwards.

    my point is that’s actually not true, look at all the balance changes, should we have those if we dwell on being v62? Why are we adding NT and PB? Those weren’t in v62. Therefore we can see they are not keeping it because it was in v62 and they don’t want to change a thing about it. They keep it because it creates a sink for people to vote daily on multiple accounts, it makes people have to leech the intlords so they have to multiclient and inflate the currently active user count. (Unless somehow the current user count are unique users from unique ips only)

    and very playable without washing? Did you read the post? He washed for 1m nx, had 75 int that slowed down his training and bossing abilities. He had to suffer much harder because it was late and most importantly because hp washing mechanic wasn’t being patched to a better state.
     
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  15. Voxtagrams
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    Voxtagrams Headless Horseman

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    Its actually in all the private servers, it's just distributed differently for each server however I guess this could be added in but I'm not sure if coding it would be simple or possible.

    The tl;dr for most players is:
    • Old players can continue washing for as long as they want. We will give old players the ability to switch to this system. This means that all old players (washed or unwashed) will be able to have a similar base HP value as players who have washed - all old or current Thieves/Bowmen/Corsairs can use this new system to upgrade their base HP to 19,000+.
      • After switching over, they will no longer gain extra MP with INT (unless they're a Magician) and they won't be able to alter HP/MP (either adding or subtracting) using AP resets. Instead, they will raid Horntail to upgrade their HP.
    • New players will no longer gain extra MP with INT (unless they're a Magician) and they won't be able to alter HP/MP (either adding or subtracting) using AP resets.
      • Instead, they will raid for HP. There's no need to understand the numbers I've included in this thread. The system is very streamlined - you get a Badge of Zakum or Badge of Horntail and you'll have the option to exchange it for HP. You can do this a limited amount of times (10 times for Zakum and 30 times for Horntail).

    However their raiding/bossing system is entirely different and is pay to win.
     
  16. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Well, in similar defense to warriors when comes to bossing.

    Most herores have 30k HP, and yet due to our lower DPM compared to ranged guys, I've heard that heroes are getting left out of end game bosses such as pink beans, and even recently on horntails. Like it or not, most people only focus if you have DPS or if you have party buffs. The only thing hero has to offer is a mediocore rage that is easily replacable by cider/energizer/apple and a mediocore damage.

    For mage, I don't think there's much needed to say. Only bishops are considered for party buffs - I/L only considered for elemental weak boss (anego, nameless, NT) and F/P is totally out of the loop.

    Now imagine if HP is so effortless to obtain, all classes are able to reach minimum HP required to fight PB and HT. Just carry 2000 or 3000 power elixirs with you and there should be nothing that can kill you - unless yr seduced. I cannot confirm about this but, I don't think PB seduce so your survival rate is 100% unless u lagged.

    Then, whats there even to play warrior classes for?? Just like ranged class, I'm only able to take a maximum of 2 highest damage. Not only that, I still have to rush and body touch PB. I don't see any much incentives left.

    I get it - you don't like washing. So do I. This is why I started as a warrior and not a BM, so I do not have to go through the leechstory which while some enjoy, I do not. But a powerful class should comes at an effort cost. I personally do not want HP Washing to be where the effort is at. But HP should never come at an easy, low-effort work.

    And no, allowing HP to be washed below the minimum MP threshold is not high effort. You are still able to train while just waiting for vote NX - being able to do both at the same time is low effort to me. Other ways, either as quest ring, monster book ring, or complete ridiculous amount of work (in maplelegends) to obtain HP that takes BOTH TIME and LITTLE TO NO HELP from other players/characters is a justifiable amount of effort - to be rewarded guaranteed, and not by gacha-rate, HP
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  17. OP
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    kickserve
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    If you have an issue with the bosses design that makes most classes useless besides ranged attackers, that is another topic and should be fixed as well.

    Fixing one of the bad design (hp washing ruining the gameplay experience of leveling from 1-150) should not be blocked by the bad design of brainless bossing (only ranged dps with washed hp is needed). Instead both needs to be fixed.

    Other mmos are able to allow good party composition allowing all or most classes to be viable. Even GMS most classes are viable (mobile bosses that require mechanics to dodge their attacks than hold a button and pot). Why can’t ML take a page out of their book rather than dwell on making it harder to create NL and BM? And full honesty: it isn’t more effort, leeching a intlord to 150 isn’t much harder than training it to 150. It only looks “high effort” because it needs funding/mage to do it. My problem with hp washing is it ruins the experience of wanting to play a class from 1-150 without having to do it again by leeching a remake character, not that leeching and hp washing is high effort so it needs to be rewarded for.
     
  18. Cak33
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    Cak33 Headless Horseman

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    Well, unfortunately most of us don't like GMS implementation. Isn't that the reason why we are here??

    Anything thats pain-in-the-ass/troublesome is considered high effort to me. To me, making mage is one, therefore I'm skipping the mage entirely. Plus the wait to 1-2m NX, is pretty troublesome itself. Although players don't do much to vote, it may be considered as high effort too.

    If you decide to pay for leech till lvl 150+, that itself is also effort, as making mesos is an effort itself.

    I do agree with you on this however. It should not be a must to add int and obtain HP, but rather a choice.

    On a big side note, if maplelegends were to do an internal nuke and reset everything, I do agree with almost everything u said on HP. Every players and class should be given a fixed HP, washing disabled, and is still able to fight required bosses. Players will not be surviving bosses so easily and requires to dodge mechanics to prevent deaths, just like pre-PB washed characters fighting in PB. Warrior's big HP will make alot more sense as they (most probably) will not be killed in a single hit if they play brain-dead, unlike their range counterparts. However, this server has already gone on for many years, implementing these stuffs without a reset is going to nullify the efforts that has been done by previous players.
     
  19. OP
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    kickserve Brown Teddy

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    I don’t like their pay2win model doesn’t mean I don’t like anything at all about it.

    I guess I categorize leeching a character vs training a character the same amount of effort. I don’t have an issue with either way they want to play but both ways should be viable. Currently if you train a character to 150 you need to do it again by leeching another of the same class. The better game design is both leeched or trained character can be viable for late game.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost

    Sometimes it’s important to just give out some compensation and head back on the correct road.
     
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  20. yurain
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    yurain Windraider

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    On the topic of effort in leeching vs training. Leeching is a billion times easier than training. It is just braindead cycle of uilt-ing mob over and over again using your 1 skill, and have some drama series on at the side to not fall asleep. Even easier if you are self leeching.

    Like I gave suggestion to new players coming in, the cheapest way to play this game is to have 3 account (Mage, HS mule, Attacker).
    Get your mage to lv120, then make you a HS, then leech your attacker. All these while, vote on at least the mage and attacker accounts daily.
    You wil probably take half a year to feel your way into the game with your mage and HS, which means you will have 1m NX at least on your attacker account (6k x 180)
    1m NX should be plenty for you to medium wash a 140 base int char (10k hp?? or more depends on your own timeline) and can gain more nx along the way.

    At this point in time, the HP washing which used to be a bug, is literally a feature now, and a core feature nontheless.
    You have to design your gameplay around this idea of HP washing, and plan around it wisely with a clear roadmap.
    You can't really go HP washing sucks, because X Y Z.
    Yes, it sucks because you didn't plan for it.

    Most of us playing this game is (almost) adults now. So, please do the required research before you start this game.
    Long gone were the days where we are all kids, and we just want to have fun and quit at lv70.

    Anyway. 2021 seems be to a pivotal year for ML, with revamping on the NX system and many more ways to gain hp.
    Could be revolutionary or just a band-aid fix (better than nothing). Gonna look forward to ti.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1

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