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What is the worst class?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Selquin, Oct 16, 2021.

What is the worst class?

  1. Hero

    33.3%
  2. DK

    8.1%
  3. Paladin

    17.2%
  4. Shadower

    12.4%
  5. I/L

    4.8%
  6. F/P

    5.1%
  7. Bishop

    3.2%
  8. Corsair

    3.8%
  9. Bucc

    2.4%
  10. BM

    2.4%
  11. MM

    3.0%
  12. NL

    4.3%
  1. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    8:03 PM
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    Bowmaster, Night Lord, Buccaneer
    200
    Pasta
    [​IMG]

    However you want to interpret "worst", what is the currently the worst class in the game?

    To get a sample from the endgame community, I surveyed some people from my guild and 8teen man PB squad. Here are the results,

    [​IMG]

    There was a time when almost everyone would have voted MM or bucc, but times have changed and I imagine the results of the poll will be quite different now.
     
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  2. Floris
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    Floris Capt. Latanica

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    4:03 AM
    Why would hero be so much worse than drk and pally?
    As it seems to me:
    Paladins do meh dpm at HT and meh at PB, while having the advantage of easier grindring with HH
    DrK do the worst DPM at PB while having the advantage of HB
    Hero does better cleave than the other two classes as CWK/HT and okay at PB

    definitely not sure if thats correct but please enlighten me :)
     
  3. OP
    OP
    Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    The order of hero/pally/dk is probably debatable, but to make the case for hero being the worst.
    -hero and pally are about the same at PB (both mediocre). DK is the worst dpm wise, but hb gives them some niche to at least be muled
    -hero is about equal to DK in cwkpq, which is off meta content
    -pally is significantly better at the other two at NT
    -all 3 are actually roughly equal in HT

    The main argument is probably that dk and pally at least have some sort of niche, while heros are simply mediocre at everything.
     
  4. Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    7:03 PM
    Gxrk
    Hero, Bishop, Marksman, Shadower, Buccaneer, Corsair
    Contrary to popular belief, pallies actually do better single target damage than archers and sairs in HT, making them second only to NLs.
     
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  5. OP
    OP
    Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    I think that statement might be questionable, maybe if you remove the "single target" part and restrict it to HT body.
     
  6. Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    7:03 PM
    Gxrk
    Hero, Bishop, Marksman, Shadower, Buccaneer, Corsair
    I guess I wasn't thinking about preheads but kakine has put up 8.4-8.6m figures without any cleaving, which is far above any archers and sairs afaik.
     
  7. OP
    OP
    Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    I think kakine still uses HH off cd, which even in its nerfed form will add a decent chunk. Also I think akash has done 8.7m dpm on cider before, but accounting for gear differential its about the same. Another thing to keep in mind is that compared to pally corsairs/BMs can get more damage on the mid head, whereas pally is forced to hit wing when right head cancels(if they are on right side).

    That said I do agree that paladins will typically do more damage taking into account the difficulty of acheiving optimal dpm on mm/bm/sair.
     
  8. Prudence55
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    Prudence55 Stone Golem

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    9:03 PM
    Poignant
    Dragon Knight, Bishop, Sniper, Hermit, Marauder
    143
    WeeniesHutJr
  9. Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    Gxrk
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    iirc from our runs, kaki didn't use hammer because he said it wasn't worth it for him. he would also start right side and would go to hit mid head whenever right head cancelled.

    that being said, I didn't realize sairs could put up that high of a number so I stand corrected with respect to sairs in that statement. mainly just meant to say that pallies are nowhere near as bad as people would like to think they are right now.
     
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  10. Dimez
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    Dimez Stone Golem

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    10:03 PM
    Crimez/Dimez/Jake
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    Hero's are overall the worst class if you weigh what they bring to the table in terms of buffs and DPM. On the contrary, with 1 hour and 30 minute Pink Bean timer and how figured out the boss is, you can probably bring 14-17 hero's and still clear the end game boss.
    Ive always thought a proper way to buff hero's to help them adapt to modern day legends DPM, is to treat Panic sword and Panic Axe like Snipe for MarksMen. If Panic Sword and Panic Axe was a free damage attack with a cool down that didn't get rid of a Hero's Orbs, it would help hero's a ton. Doing this would also make Axe Hero's a bit more relevant because they would have some free damage to help them.
    Screenshot 2021-10-15 223755.png
     
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  11. Jaewonnie
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    Jaewonnie Capt. Latanica

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    Crimsonwood Mountain: Cavern of Pain
    10:03 PM
    PAWGChamp
    Buccaneer
    Heroes are bad because they offer nothing but cleave. They can do shitton of dmg when there is cleave. However, game currently doesn't have much cleave. So heroes are bad rn. Either add utility to hero or add more cleave to game.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  12. Chris
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    Chris Zakum Retired Staff

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    10:03 PM
    Christopher
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    I had a hero once. Never again.
     
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  13. TWW
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    TWW Pink Teddy

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    10:03 PM
    TheWhiteWolf
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    Yes...yes...heroes are terrible...now buff us them some more OnionF3
     
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  14. BananaPie
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    BananaPie Selkie Jr.

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    Let me just step in and provide a bit more flavour on this. A paladin can do whatever you want it to which allows it to adapt to different squad compositions. When I ran with Gurk we ran with the holy 3MM squad so there's significant cleave damage already arising when right head is cancelled as the meta MM play is to PA wings/arm when RH is cancelled. If you, the pally, goes cleave wings/arm then there's far too much cleave so the optimal strat is to poke mid head from the highest mini rock on the right (which is what I do). Conversely if you're in a squad with a BM and at least 2 other NL's you'd be better off probably going down to wings/arms to cleave rather than focus heads (depending on how strong your bishop is) - but wings/arms would be best given there's a lot of head dmg already so that you can ensure wings/arms aren't too fat when heads go down
     
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  15. Kyshies
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    Kyshies Slimy

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    Night Lord pretty bad too unless you literally level another 129 char to lug around for SE.

    Unless, of course, you like being dependent on others.
     
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  16. SaltySalty
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    SaltySalty Mano

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    100k boss damage to bosses for heaven hammer please :")
     
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  17. Nightz
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    Nightz Supervisor Staff Member Supervisor Game Moderator

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    Nightz
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    Moderator Post
    This post has inspired me to create a hero and a pally
     
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  18. Motto
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    Motto Skelegon

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    4:03 AM
    PogShad Motto
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    Same I removed it after getting to lvl 123, I just understood it was all going to be a cesspool.

    (plus I beta tested it on another server to check how it was, and boy oh boy I was not happy with it)
     
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  19. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    I would say the issue with hero is that it could be outright removed from the game without really impacting the meta. The way a hero can shine is in a 2 to 3-cleave environment, specifically. But this is exactly what dk does at a very similar level, albeit at the cost of an effectively gimped hp pool and use of 20 different types of potions to zerk.

    It would take a 3-cleave scenario where zerking is practically impossible to make hero outweigh dk in terms of damage. More than 3 and other classes can make up some ground such as mage, MM, sair. That's a huge ask in a metagame where virtually all cleaving bossing scenarios aren't too impactful. Bossing is heavily single target (ranged) focused, and mobbing is heavily ult (maged) focused.

    CWK is probably the best place for boss cleaving, but that is generally not considered an endgame, and DK can fill that exact same role too. Scarga might very well be number 2, as you can pile both bosses on top of each other and put them through the brandish meat grinder until they die. While not impossible to zerk, hero would do it more efficiently. Of course, such a strategy gets in the way of any non-hero/dk targeting during cancels, severely limiting who it can pair with (even sair would struggle targeting the proper boss and generally has better strategies to maintain boat uptime). Add in the fact that the usual ranged and pally can still nuke them both separately even if scarga were endgame relevant, and any cleaving "edge" is whittled away.

    Cleaving in HT is heavily discouraged by most every squad now. The reward for killing an arm early is not worth the accompanied risk, and the available wing/arm damage is already "claimed" by both the bishop and ranged chars, who need something to hit during head cancels. The available cleaving time is highly contested though, and only shrinks with the strength of the bishop. DK and shad both fill this role; shad provides a sed option and smoke, while dk provides hb to either classes that need it, or at least a lessened pot cost to any non-30k class that doesnt expressly require hb.

    Pink Bean obviously is not cleave friendly. While not impossible to complete a run with a hero, it appears to be worth just slightly over half an NL. While that's more a testament on how broken NL is, it does pretty much mean all but the most decked out and connected heroes are locked out of 8TEEN man bean runs, with multiple squads compressing raid slots with basically only NL and NL-supporting cast. At least they compare more favorably to other classes? While they actually aren't dead weight in a 30 man setting and even outperform dk counterparts due to difficulty zerking, they still suffer from having less raw damage, less opportunity to do damage (#JusticeForRightBird), and are still more likely to die than most classes due to attacking and covering up the 20k+ damage beatstick that is bean itself. DK is brought to even 8TEEN man bean *because* of hb, but once that is no longer required as washing catches up those slots aren't suddenly going to hero.

    Tl;Dr Hero and DK both fill the same roles in almost all content, but dk support is massively better than hero support, extending its viability (at least currently) beyond a nigh irrelevant cleave. If hero did not exist, DK could entirely fill the gap hero would leave and vice versa when washing makes everyone 30k. A game with both is redundant, but dk does slightly more.
     
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  20. Loug
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    Loug Horny Mushroom

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    11:03 PM
    Loug
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    I wanted to make a hero for cwk and the occasional ToT farming, but considering they have pretty much the same boofs as paladins I stayed on the fence, now thanks to this post I'll just make a nostalgia dk instead.
     

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