Horntail and another talking. All kind of reactions welcome.

I am going to use my initial HT experience as a guild as an example. Colors back then only did 12 people runs and we would finish with 0-20 minutes remaining depending on how many died/dc WITH apples. (We were mostly 135-165 ish) This was absolutely fun and our HT runs made the guild super tight and we still are. By reducing timer to 1 hour, this will be impossible for newer/weaker guilds to clear as a guild unless they assemble and organise a 18-people run which is not an easy thing to do and might have to outsource DPM which is difficult (less splits for the DPM).

The prices of books are going to go up and the people who are going to benefit most from are the super funded 6-7 people runs (more splits/controlling prices).
What happens when the server reaches the point when 6-people-1 hour runs become the norm? Do we reduce the timer further to 45 minutes?

HT definitely needs to be buffed $$$ wise but 1 hour timer is not the solution.

 

what if the droprate of sbs significantly decreases if bossu alive after x-amount of time? newer bossers get value with exp/items and pros can farm books.

 

You guys speak about "kicking down the ladder", but the irony is that HT is so bad right now that our "poor lvl 155-180 players" would literally progress faster if they did anything other than HT. In terms of both efficiency HT is inferior to any form mage farming or shaolin grinding. The ladder has been burned for quite a bit of time now.

I'm glad you brought this up, but we've actually been through this arc in 2019. Instead of asking for more splits, it was usually more natural to simply run with similarily sweaty players and simply run with less people. The steadily declining price of HT prices forced somewhat of a revolution in HT strategy in order to run with less people and use no apples.

The quest for making HT viable resulted in important technical advancements like HH mules dex bucs, formerly considered unviable gimmicks that became widespread. HH mules gave competent players an easy way to massively improve their effective dpm which opened the door to smaller HT groups. Dex buccs offered an easy to almost entirely block sed and offer TL/SI (which also later led to the implementation of AFK HTP sales). The standardization of dex buccs also meant that SI was common in many groups even though the bucc population was nearly non-existant, which greatly boosted the viability of warriors as attackers.

The omnipresence of SI also greatly benefited the dpm of bishops. Thanks to the work a couple key people, we also realized that bishops actually did a massive amount of DPM in HT(easily surpassing NLs in body) and should not be played as heal/ress/hs/magic guard mules. Once this was known were now expected to DPM efficiently like the rest of the attackers. THis later led to the realization that mage was in fact also a viable attacker on even the sweatiest 4man HT runs.

There was also an emphasis on individual class strategy optimizations for attackers to maximize their effective DPM in HT. One of these optimizations was realizing the importance of not letting your range attackers hit the wing at any point in the run, since hitting the wing is waste of time as it will die to cleave damage anyways. Formerly NLs and archers would hit the wing on the right side when the right head cancelled, but later it became standard to focus the mid head when the right head cancelled.

Overall 2019-mid 2020 was perhaps the most innovative time period in the history of the game. This mini-renaissance was so influential that it caused paladins to get nerfed into the ground(the first ever class nerf in the server), buccaneer avoid formula to get entirely reworked, multiclienting in bosses to get temporarily removed.

As result of these optimizations, the sweatiest 4man groups which made use of all of these advancements were so much more efficient at HT that it was not unusual to see 4man runs clear faster than 2 party runs. Indeed the top players of that era did exactly as you suggested, innovate to solve their problems rather than asking for balance changes. However we are now at the point where doing 4man HT and clearing in 1.5 hours is less profitable than farming ulu2 with no leechers on a lvl 13x mage, the price of books are simply too trash. We did everything we could to make HT viable in the last 2 years and delay the inevitable, but the only thing that can save us now is 1 hour timer.

 

Hui-ae is amazingly articulate about her thoughts and also has the credentials/experience to back up.

I just wish people will stop going on about 1 hr HT timers. As Hui-ae mentioned, if you want it to be challenging and sweaty, by all means go ahead. A blanket provision for all HT to be 1-hr just merely serves to erect an already challenging barrier to surmount (HP washing time, exp nerf in areas like Shaolin just to name some)

my main point is this - why must everything be “economically viable”? My view is that the current HT is good as it is - versatile for high level geared players to do 6man runs, or squads being able to offer AFK runs to be done in that short time, or just new groups trying out 10-12man runs as part of their stepping stone to enjoying this content.

If it is not commercially viable, please continue to innovate and optimise your DPM and go on smaller man runs to maximise your splits, or find something else economically viable to your satisfaction and pander to your profit appetite. It’s extremely parochial to bring up “challenge” or “economics” behind the facade of you just not wanting others to enjoy the fruits like you did(HT for exp and books), or your insecurities of others catching up in terms of levels

I appeal to you sirs, please stop kicking the door down for other’s enjoyment of the game content in favour of your own gain. If all it means to you is to optimise $$ and exp, you do you. Let us enjoy our fun with guildees, catching up over that 4 hours of HT, enjoying each other’s company and laughing at our own stupidity or sharing lovely memories, please. Thanks

 

will give you one more tip. with my meme hospital, my squad can sell 5~6men afk HTP+EGG service and actually I do that sometimes. = nice guaranteed $. wanna try this? Ofc, I ask much more split % than compared with ordinary/sed bishes, since I do more roles than them, and nobody talk shit about it. (Dare? lol) I'm sure that '3+NL meme project' which I suggested, would works exactly same.

I think this perfectly suits with your purpose - trying harder, and making more reward. as I mentioned, that meme hospital can be used for 'charity', but also can be used for 'dank reward' which you want, and I use my mules on both purpose. i'm not philanthropist as you thought.

Just feeling bad that 1hr HT timer blocks most of players from current 'joyful HT' which they're enjoying (and which I love, hoped to see from start of HT run history in ML), and make it only joyful for suggesters while pushing others into pain of endless making $ to buy few sweaties overpriced HT stuffs. that's why I'm so against about it.

I wish, all players who do boss, understand bossing is similar with gamble if you only focus on $. sometimes you hit jackpot, sometimes you lose. since drop is heavily RNG-based. maybe that's one of reasons why I started to make meme hospital - to make 'guaranteed reward' - and it worked pretty well.

I'm sure, if you're real pro, you can make your answer to solve this dillema, instead of telling '1h HT timer is only savior'. Just like I tried (and satisfied with it).

Can you sure? Even I can't sure myself for saying so.

 

They literally just added pink bean not that long ago and you’re asking for a new challenge

 

I agree that a chaos HT is probably the best solution to this, as it helps new players and satisfies old players. Although I will say that some of these insane bossing groups (like selquin) will probably figure it out pretty soon regardless of how hard. Every HT related change in the last year has been "figured out" pretty quickly.

Even with this change, the core issue is that the entire bossing economy revolves around the scarcity of Gen 30, MW20 and MW30. Even with the introduction of Reverse/Timeless, since it's untradeable, there's not much liquidity or demand. One thing that this recent patch introduced were the Eye Accessory scrolls. It seems that the drop rate is pretty low (only 6 30%s in the market) and they are priced at 9-10m each currently. There will always be demand for hp in the server, so this has already helped with the HT money problem slightly.

So are there other similar additions? Another HT boss equip (like temporary non-event rings) that gives a ton of HP? Or dropping 1-2 tradeable ap resets per run (around 10m each).

Also, it's easy for new players to come in here and scoff at these boomers for not making enough money. This is a big issue for the economy of this server. When late-game attackers can't make money by bossing, they are forced to make mages, making us go down the path of leech-story. The economy currently is mostly sustained by the influx of new people coming to the server (and the gach / demand for SBs they bring).

Maybe it'd be helpful for someone (akash?) to post that detailed breakdown of how much meso the average HT run is worth. I would say it's so bad right now that I barely cover pot costs on my lightly washed BM.

 

I appreciate the advice but I assure you that I have no need for HT tips. I am of course aware that selling afk HTP service is an option, in fact it was our 4man squad that introduced the concepted of commercialized AFK HTP. As for multiclienting many roles, you cannot ask for more splits when everyone on the entire team is controlling 3 characters.

 

Thanksfully, none of my squad beside me multiclient. They just control 1 DPM character per player and I do every roles except DPMing.
I even sure I can duo that HT if I meet 3+NL meme guy with afk-HTP business. (haven't met tho. R>. I'm serious. Anyone?)

and if you think dividing HT split in /2 is still lower than ulu2 farming mage and we need to restrict players from HT so we can get higher $$$ from selling books, there's nothing I can say furthermore.

Ofc I do know you're pro for HT, since you slayed that fugly dragon for 2yrs. I never doubted it.

 

Will an hour-long timer really reduce supply that much? Stronger players HT more often than weaker players, so you'd have to lock out a lot of players for a small increase in profit.

If HT profits are so bad, why not ask for better drops (valuable scrolls, for example)? That makes more sense to me.

 

Can everyone show their HT history runs and total HTP sales first before posting here? It seems like there are numerous armchair experts over here with little/casual to no experience giving their outdated opinion

 

Akash is looking for someone to duo HT with no meme

 

Yeah. Duoing HT - was my dream from the day I started HT in ML.
(too bad that i was so close but lost my NL due to my stupidity. crap, should have to try it earlier when timer was 12hrs! T _T)

But yes. for afk-HTP business, no need many ppl doing multiclient. just 1 ppl was enough to open chance for business of afk-HTP in 5~6men squad. if your squad needed all of your members to do 3 clients, it's seriously failed on optimization.

 

The only real drops of value from ht now are the books (and I guess the hp scrolls until they permeate the market). If the weapons were more likely to be higher attack on average than ones crafted or dropped by mobs that could make the weapon drops more relevant as well. The issue with books is the demand only comes from new players. Once you pass a book, the item doesnt help anymore. Pink bean's mw30 would face a similar fate, but everyone knows PB doesnt *actually* drop the book.

When the main money generator of a boss is a mastery book, this type of deflation is inevitable. Large amounts of the population already have mw20 on a character (not all, I know, put down the pitchfork), so the target market will keep shrinking and will likely include only those that couldnt afford it before. It's similar for weapons, but those required many more "attempts" on average to not need to buy more, and is rarely able to be shared across a user's characters (minus swords or same class remakes).

Giving the egg an npc value may have been a step in good faith to improve profitability per run, but at like 300k per egg that isnt looted as part of an htp, the profit per run remains relatively unchanged.

Hot take: the other option available instead of trying to make ht harder to limit supply creation is to take some of the raw money generation from mages and move it to bossing. When bossing is vastly inferior to farming on a mage, perhaps the mage simply makes too much.
#DownWithBigMagic

 

Make HTP lose pendant buff every 3 months.

 

Imagine inventing AFK HTP and then 11 months down the road some retired boomer is telling you how to sell AFK HTP for extra profits

 

Imagine invented and tried bringing mule bish in HT for 1st time in ML HT history and watching someone does sarcasm for 'I invented afk htp you retired boomer'.

Spoiler: Because I'm sure you want any evidences for it

HT2.png (800×600) (discordapp.com)
That SS was taken at march of 2k18. was 4men + 1 bish mule for whole run, also, 1st 4men HT in ML history. was me who did NL + bish mule.
At that period, servers population was like 100ish and every HT runs were kinda recorded and known since only very few runs were made every weeks. Just like all PB runs were known nowadays.

concept of afk-htp was, existed, even before you started this game. hard to believe, but it was. just not in common.
and even I can't dare say like 'I invented afk-htp business' because I think it's hubris.

Also, I do know you guys know what afk-htp is. I thought you're wise enough to understand that I suggested '1 multiclienter to open possibility for afk-HTP business in small group HT run - like (crap, I was even providing SI+SE on that run) this : HT_days.png (1600×900) (discordapp.com)', instead of just noobish talking about afk-htp business itself on you pro guys. and still I hope to believe, you understood it.

Oradius, I respect what you've accomplished and think it's awesome. I hope you do same on others too, instead of underrating others and treating you as da best. that's what 'pros' of this game should do, imo. Again, there's no 'best' nor 'perfect'. as [Mapletip] says.

I think i wasted enough time on this thread and explained enough (tbh, too much) about what I think. won't reply furthermore since I noticed I'm becoming toxic also, and I really don't want to be like that moreover. would be better to let others think about this also, instead of spreading toxic together. I apologize for my aggressive attitude on this thread, to all you read.

 

I don't agree that making HT harder will hurt newer players.

My argument is based on how purchasing power has changed in the past year--how much could 1m buy you in early 2020 vs early 2021? What I find interesting is that it rapidly went to shit, except for WS/CS and their friends (BWGs, GFA30). The next question we should ask is, what should purchasing power be? The answer to this isn't black and white and everyone will likely have differing opinions on this, but I think a good way to approach it is to look at who the winners and losers are.

IMO, I think the current price trends are detrimental to mid-game players and new end-game players, and favourable to old end-game players. I think this also resulted in an increased reliance on leeching and mage farming, as others have pointed out already in this thread.

Sorry in advance for making another analogy (apparently I'm really bad at making them). But, I think this whole situation lends well to the "boomers had it easier" issue we have IRL. A year ago, you could run half as many HTs as you would now to be able to afford a WS/CS, due to the current prices of all HT drops and HTP being close to half of what they were a year ago. Meanwhile, the next best alternative of farming and leeching has become twice as attractive, since leech prices haven't declined much and mesos dropped by mobs is fixed. But even then, since end-game prices are up, newer players still need to sell more leech than older players had to in the past.

Anyways, TL;DR is that price increases in WS/CS and price decreases in everything else means making end-game gear is harder now, especially for those who don't sell leech. This hurts those who are new to end-game and benefits those who were already there before the prices changed. I won't comment on whether I think this is good or bad since it'd be biased towards my own personal gain, but I think this should be taken into consideration when saying that making HT harder will hurt people currently in the 15x-18x range because I don't think this is true, based on everything said above.

afterthought: You might also use the changes in purchasing power to argue that newer players had an easier time getting to mid/end-game, since their mesos could buy more small-ticket items. Meanwhile, older players suffered from this since the relative value of their smaller assets had fallen.

 

I leveled my NL 155-170 exclusively through horntail and it was the most fun I've had playing maplelegends. I got my BM to 155 this week and did my first run just last night, and I'm very glad that I finally have a way to make money and get exp with some friends other than grinding and cwk. If Horntail wasn't feasible for either of these characters I'd be bored out of my gourd and would have quit the game ages ago. Speed isn't everything. I want new players to be able to do something fun, too, and if HT squads become more exclusive, then those new players won't get to have fun in the same way as everyone else.