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Should the Upgrade Curve Be Changed?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by bienfu, Sep 5, 2023.

  1. bienfu
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    bienfu Pac Pinky

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    For anyone who is not aware of what I am talking about, it is the upgrade progression that maplers go through in MapleLegends. Essentially what the experience boils down to is this:
    Players will grind a reasonable amount for their gear: a scrolled Zak/Scar Helm, followed by their Dex/Str/Luk Top/Bottom/Overall, followed by 12 - 14 Attack gloves, and then their choice of weapon which is probably something along the lines of a mid-maybe near end-game weapon. I consider this grind to be reasonable, meaning that the effort invested produces plausible gains relative to that effort invested.

    However, beyond a certain point, when a player chooses to upgrade their gear even more, every further upgrade requires a cost that just... exponentially, really... exponentially increases a crazy amount. For what I'm referring to, its things like Chaos'ed capes for attack, Chaosed MoN, 15, 16 att+ gloves, weapons with 3 or more 30/10%s successfully passed. Before things cost 10's of millions, maybe few hundreds of millions at most, for you to progress in your gear to then meeting a giant freaking wall of needing billions for SMALL upgrades.

    If you were to graph effort invested versus gains, it would look like this.
    upload_2023-9-5_10-33-28.png
    Essentially the effect is this for most players AKA sane maplers: the grind is not worth it. The grind is too unfun because the investment you get isn't worth it. This wall exists due to the sheer number of chaos scrolls and white scrolls, the most expensive, rare/hard to acquire, and risky components in the game, required to be used to upgrade your gear. This wall requires the craziest grind on part of mages/leechers for a long long time (or the occasional bonkers gambler), and lets be real, 99.99% of people don't want to do that.
    (MapleRoyals also has this issue but is exacerbated that you can vote to win for the first half).

    Now contrast this to something like DreamMS (disclaimer: I am not advocating for DreamMS style of progression).
    upload_2023-9-5_10-34-43.png
    This model has a more linear relationship between effort invested and the amount progression/gains you get for a longer period of time. However, in my opinion, this made the server too easy, and therefore too unfulfilling when you reach the goals you once thought were supposed to be difficult, because they weren't actually that difficult for a pre-BB server. This curve exists because there is immense ease of acquiring white scrolls and perfecting your weapon and other items and the result is that most players DELAY chaos scrolling until the very end. But as I said, in my opinion, this graph is too easy/too casual.

    In my opinion, a curve that is less punishing would look like this:
    upload_2023-9-5_10-39-37.png
    Essentially this graph is more rewarding to more players while retaining the difficulty of the wall that exists afterwards. Delaying the wall, in my opinion, would prolong the gametime/period that most players find enjoyment in grinding MapleLegends.

    Now the question is, how would this be achieved? I have one solution: lowering the prestigious coin value of Chaos Scrolls. (Though I would encourage any other discussions)
    For many Maplers, the concept of the rarity of Chaos Scrolls and White Scrolls are tied together, meaning they are both equal in rarity and value (this exists in MapleRoyals, too).
    Of course it is nostalgic that the two are tied together, but nostalgia value is arbitrary and subjective.

    So what would the impact of lowering coin value of Chaos Scrolls do? Obviously the answer depends on what their cost is. I would propose the chaos scroll value go from having the market value of 93-ish coins (the value of Mysterious Pouch 5), to that of 30-40 coins or about 100-120mil.

    Now what are the ramifications of this new cost for Chaos Scrolls? Does it become cheaper to chaos your items? Yes it does. However, with each scroll still bearing a cost of 30-40 coins, it is still something that must be grinded and/or is not feasibly something players should strive for until they have reached otherwise sufficient levels of gear. Cheaper chaos scrolls will reduce the value of many capes/gloves/facestompers. Yes, this is true, that would be the point, but it will reduce their value in such a way that the effort required to grind for these items is not such a massive wall. In perspective, what it really does is move the window of value of highly-chaosed items. I am not aware of the exact costs of capes right now, but I presume something like
    7 att: 300-400 coins
    9 attack: 700 coins
    11 attack: 1300 coins
    15 attack: 2000 coins
    19 attack: your life savings
    23 attack: every year remaining in your life
    24 attack: the rest of your life, your spouse's life, and your children's lives too

    But by moving the window, it would hypothetically look something like this:
    7 attack: 150-200 coins
    9 attack: 350 coins
    11 attack: 500 coins
    15 attack: 800 coins
    19 attack: 1500 coins
    23 attack: your life savings
    24 attack: just half of your remaining life on earth

    So yes, the reduced cost of chaos scrolls does indeed reduce the value of things like attack capes, but in perspective, it moves the window that is more friendly and accessible to more players. A player may see themselves forseeably grinding for 1bil for a 9 attack cape, that would be worth it for more people than it is to grind 2bil for a 9attack cape. This allows more players to forseeably see themselves engage in the chaotic game of gambling with chaos scrolls and thus be willing to interact with this economy even more.

    TL:DR reduce the cost of chaos scrolls, game difficulty remains high, window is moved to be friendly to more players, and this wall of needing to grind billions for small upgrades is not so punishing, increases player retention and lifespan of gameplay

    thank you for talking to my ted listen, phosisticated legendlers, am open to other ideas, but not your disagreement kthnxbye
     

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    Last edited: Sep 5, 2023
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  2. Krythan
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    Krythan Nightshadow

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    How would this proposal impact existing end-game players (the most dedicated, and vocal, of the server) who have spend years working on their gear?
     
  3. OP
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    bienfu
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    bienfu Pac Pinky

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    It devalues their gear from 700 years worth of investment to 200 years. Perfected White Scrolled items retain all their value.
    The rich remain super rich, but it also means that they have more opportunity to go even higher.

    It should be obvious that while items like 15 attack or 17 attack pacs become more accessible, theyre still really freaking hard to get (all relative to a new cost of chaos scrolls)

    Also, at one point, weren't chaos scrolls (white scrolls too) cheaper than what they are worth now?
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2023
  4. LeonardoJF
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    LeonardoJF Zakum

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    in my idea, chaos scrolls should be cheaper than white, wasn't it like that before? by the way, I can't say how much, but a little cheaper
     
  5. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    Should player upgrade expectation curve be changed?
     
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  6. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    Even if chaos were historically cheaper than ws, it can be speculated that the value if chaos would have quickly risen in today's meta. Everyone can use a ws, but after perf wep and say 21 gloves, players just dump chaos on everything they can find. There is a growing population chaosing capes, specs, earrings, gloves, shoes, and even some experimentation on items such as top/bot, hats, masks and shields. Almost every non-weapon slot can benefit from some yolo chaosing (especially if it has w.att).

    Ive long been on the record stating chaos scrolls were a mistake and even consider potential a more balancable mechanic.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  7. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    Clean 4 wa PGCs are currently 240m ish. Imagine how much they'd be worth if CS were only worth 150m.
     
  8. fartsy
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    fartsy Zakum

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    i mean staff already chose for ws and cs to be 100 coins+10m in the shop probably as a soft cap to relative prices and ML already grew around that system. why change it now?
     
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  9. Subterlabor
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    Subterlabor Headless Horseman

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    Personally I think it should absolutely be changed, however because there is such a huge majority of players already with these chaosed and ws+10 weapons I HIGHLY doubt the staff will ever reduce the price of ws/cs/coins. If they do they would voluntarily reduce the value of their own weapons+gear which imo is a poor arguement to make everyone else suffer through the inflated costs. If someone has spent the time to ws+10/cs an item, they've already assumed the risk of losing money. I don't think it justifies making the upgrade progression so stacked against everyone else just to maintain the "value" of your project.

    In the GMS days the ws+cs were tradeable and around 100-150m with ws being slightly more. Personally I wish it was around the same mark
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2023
  10. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    It's almost like players should learn how to increase their earning potential instead of pointing at expensive things with their empty wallets.
     
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  11. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    If we are going to rely on graphs that include 'the wall', I think it should be established/discussed where exactly that wall lies within MapleLegends and whether or not the current place of that 'wall' is an issue.

    E.g. in my opinion (certainly not from own experience, but I feel like I know enough endgame players to base my opinion on) the current 'wall' that people run into lies beyond the point of being able to participate in virtually all content.
    What I mean by this is that, in the current situation, you can participate in the 'peak' endgame content (pb) without having to spend tens of billions on gear. Sure, you might get left out of the treasured 18-man runs, but I don't consider this a huge issue.
    If you play the game with some sense (and I don't consider multimaging a part of this) the time it takes to reach pb level is also enough time to obtain the gear necessary for participation. A great example of this in my eyes is SobletSoblet, who has recorded virtually every step they took on their way to endgame.
    It is only natural that people strive to be stronger -> reduce the number of players required for a boss run -> increase their profits from said boss run.

    Tldr; As long as 'the wall' lies beyond the point of participating in all content, I don't think it's harmful to the server. Reaching 180-190 takes a good while ((if you're not Gurk)).
     
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  12. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    Order of importance for factors that determine whether you get accepted on to the run:
    1. How well liked you are by the host and other runners
    2. How well you understand your role in the fight and your ability to perform that role
    3. What job you chose
    4. Your level
    5. Your gear

    Even then the standards for gear are more or less trivial to meet by the time you reach things like PB. 14 wa gloves, 8 wa cape, and a ~1b weapon are easily achievable by 180 given prudent decision making.
     
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  13. lv1crook
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    lv1crook Capt. Latanica

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    If there is going to be a change to the pcoins value of chaos scrolls, I think it should more closely resemble the value the scrolls previously had. In the past WS was 300m and chaos was 200m. So if there should be a change imo it should be closer to 60-66 pcoins instead.

    In regard to general scrolling, I don’t think any rates should be changed for success, but I wouldn’t be against it if dark scrolls and clean slate scrolls had a lower rate of destroying the weapon. This could bridge the gap a little better between decent gear and great but not exactly perfect gear.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    I don't think it is fair to draw a comparison between the way the game was then and the current situation. As mentioned before in this thread, the relative part of the population currently relying on chaos scrolls for progression is significantly larger than it was back then. The balance between ws/cs prices naturally shifted.
     
  15. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    Depending on class, you can probably 30 man pb with clean gear and carry your weight if you know what you're doing.
     
  16. Subterlabor
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    Subterlabor Headless Horseman

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    Average ovv response, "lower expectations"
     
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  17. Subterlabor
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    Subterlabor Headless Horseman

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    It would be solved very easily by buffing the loot tables around capes in gach to bring the price to a reasonable amount, I'm still not sure what happened to cause the capes to skyrocket from 150~m to 240m just over a couple months. Alot of people scrolling I guess
     
  18. Ainz
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    Ainz Zakum

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    Average subterlabor response, "ignore 75% of informative content to continue to point finger at big mean endgame player"
     
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  19. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Zakum

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    When the new prices equalize, and everyone has 16 wa capes that are now worth 1b, will people be upset they dont have 25 wa capes that will still be worth 20b+?
     
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  20. -ovv
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    -ovv Horntail

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    FS should be 100 coins
     
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