New Mage damage formula

brunandes · Dec 5, 2023

Ainz said: ↑

Yes, I do feel like that seems affordable to most people by the time they hit 180. Besides, it's gear + mw20, with mw20 giving a whopping 91 int at lvl 180.
Click to expand...

Oh wow u are really sweaty, didn't expect that view! I personally wouldn't consider it affordable at all. Considering that breakeven damage is still really low, you can dump that funding on any attacker and do twice the damage.

Nightz · Dec 5, 2023

Moderator Post

brunandes said: ↑

You are still misunderstanding. Your breakeven tma increases with your level now. Lvl 130 is now the level with the least amount of tma to breakeven because the new wand is a hugeee upgrade. Back to my question, 500 tma from gear to breakeven at lvl 180, is that affordable to most people? And it is just breaking even, not even buff.
Click to expand...

Just to correct your statement a bit and avoid misinformation
500 tma from gear, including MW20 and meditation/wiz elix actually puts you at 1417 tma at level 180.
This is in fact a buff of 3.88%, the break-even point at level 180 would be at 1378 where you'd be at 100.01%. This is 461 tma from gear, mw20 & wiz elixir.

1378 can be achieved with the following gear for example, whether you find this affordable or not I'll leave that up to you to decide.

MW20 ~ 500m

175 tma wand ~ 300m

Wiz Elixir / meditation

32 int helmet ~100m

25 tma earrings ~230m

24 int bathrobe(can be replaced with much cheaper starlight) ~270m

15 tma glove ~225m

9 int racc mask ~75m

20 tma shield ~200m

Monster book ring 5

Ellin ring 1 int

Pendant 23 int ~45m

17 tma purple adv cape ~55m

4 int shoes

Prices are estimates based on my own knowledge of the market, you might not agree with all of them but it should paint a decent picture. That's 2b mesos at level 180.

That being said, I constantly see you making reference of how weak mages already are and they are deserving of bigger buffs in regards to bossing and while I understand your sentiment. This change was purely as re balance of gear/att pot scaling for mages and award those that gear their mage up, not to be a flat out buff to mages across the board in bossing. Personally I don't find mages as bad in bossing as you state them to be and it should be worth noting that they also hold incredible power elsewhere in the game, such as farming meso or exp.

Ainz · Dec 5, 2023

brunandes said: ↑

Oh wow u are really sweaty, didn't expect that view! I personally wouldn't consider it affordable at all. Considering that breakeven damage is still really low, you can dump that funding on any attacker and do twice the damage.
Click to expand...

I'm far from sweaty. But hitting 180 requires a lot of hours spent either grinding or bossing, both of which generate income.

brunandes · Dec 5, 2023

Nightz said: ↑

Just to correct your statement a bit and avoid misinformation
500 tma from gear, including MW20 and meditation/wiz elix actually puts you at 1417 tma at level 180.
This is in fact a buff of 3.88%, the break-even point at level 180 would be at 1378 where you'd be at 100.01%. This is 461 tma from gear, mw20 & wiz elixir.

1378 can be achieved with the following gear for example, whether you find this affordable or not I'll leave that up to you to decide.

MW20 ~ 500m

175 tma wand ~ 300m

Wiz Elixir / meditation

32 int helmet ~100m

25 tma earrings ~230m

24 int bathrobe(can be replaced with much cheaper starlight) ~270m

15 tma glove ~225m

9 int racc mask ~75m

25 tma shield ~200m

Monster book ring 5

Ellin ring 1 int

Pendant 23 int ~45m

17 tma purple adv cape ~55m

4 int shoes

Prices are estimates based on my own knowledge of the market, you might not agree with all of them but it should paint a decent picture. That's 2b mesos at level 180.

That being said, I constantly see you making reference of how weak mages already are and they are deserving of bigger buffs in regards to bossing and while I understand your sentiment. This change was purely as re balance of gear/att pot scaling for mages and award those that gear their mage up, not to be a flat out buff to mages across the board in bossing. Personally I don't find mages as bad in bossing as you state them to be and it should be worth noting that they also hold incredible power elsewhere in the game, such as farming meso or exp.
Click to expand...

I threw 500 out there as a rough number because there is no fixed number.
1378 is rather specific though, what INT vs MA did u use?

And interesting that your view of 'rebalance' gear scaling means taking out level up contribution almost entirely.

Tommygunner · Dec 5, 2023

Nightz said: ↑

Just to correct your statement a bit and avoid misinformation
500 tma from gear, including MW20 and meditation/wiz elix actually puts you at 1417 tma at level 180.
This is in fact a buff of 3.88%, the break-even point at level 180 would be at 1378 where you'd be at 100.01%. This is 461 tma from gear, mw20 & wiz elixir.

1378 can be achieved with the following gear for example, whether you find this affordable or not I'll leave that up to you to decide.

MW20 ~ 500m

175 tma wand ~ 300m

Wiz Elixir / meditation

32 int helmet ~100m

25 tma earrings ~230m

24 int bathrobe(can be replaced with much cheaper starlight) ~270m

15 tma glove ~225m

9 int racc mask ~75m

25 tma shield ~200m

Monster book ring 5

Ellin ring 1 int

Pendant 23 int ~45m

17 tma purple adv cape ~55m

4 int shoes

Prices are estimates based on my own knowledge of the market, you might not agree with all of them but it should paint a decent picture. That's 2b mesos at level 180.

That being said, I constantly see you making reference of how weak mages already are and they are deserving of bigger buffs in regards to bossing and while I understand your sentiment. This change was purely as re balance of gear/att pot scaling for mages and award those that gear their mage up, not to be a flat out buff to mages across the board in bossing. Personally I don't find mages as bad in bossing as you state them to be and it should be worth noting that they also hold incredible power elsewhere in the game, such as farming meso or exp.
Click to expand...

i dont think 25TMA shield is 200mil, given that 26TMA sold for above 450-500mil

Nightz · Dec 5, 2023

Moderator Post

Tommygunner said: ↑

i dont think 25TMA shield is 200mil, given that 26TMA sold for above 450-500mil
Click to expand...

I meant 20 tma shield apologies

Nightz · Dec 5, 2023

Moderator Post

brunandes said: ↑

I threw 500 out there as a rough number because there is no fixed number.
1378 is rather specific though, what INT vs MA did u use?
Click to expand...

That's fair, I just felt that 500 was a bit on the high end. to keep things simple I just did tma*4/5.
I suppose you could say that there should be about 44 more int instead with the posted gears and then you'd be at 99.81% at the tma I posted.

Milkydoor · Dec 5, 2023

brunandes said: ↑

The physical damage formula isn't quadratic at all??? It multiplies base stat with WA, meaning the increase of either stat or wa synergises with each other in terms of final damage output.

Yes I have acknowledged that the mage fornula led to slight scaling, I just didn't call it quadratic, I said squaring.

The difference is that the old mage formula's squaring portion leads to increased scaling as total tma increases (meaning scaling from both lvl and gear), the new formula changed the squaring to be purely on excess tma (scaling depends on current gear). This is problematic because it makes INT from leveling almost worthless compared to INT from gear.
Click to expand...

Okay, I'll word it this way then: the "squaring" term in the magic formula means tma synergizes with itself in terms of final damage output. That's the same thing, just with one variable instead of two. Hence quadratic.

The deeper nuances stem from the relative availabilities of primary stat, magic attack and weapon attack, such as the ability for physical attackers to temporarily increase their weapon attack by ~30-70%, depending on class and gear. Imagine if cheese and jigajuice lasted as long as an onyx apple. And there was no tma cap.

If you want to break down the damage formulae and make meaningful quantitative statements without cherry picking on either side, you should make sure you consider the full picture.

brunandes · Dec 5, 2023

Milkydoor said: ↑

Okay, I'll word it this way then: the "squaring" term in the magic formula means tma synergizes with itself in terms of final damage output. That's the same thing, just with one variable instead of two. Hence quadratic.

The deeper nuances stem from the relative availabilities of primary stat, magic attack and weapon attack, such as the ability for physical attackers to temporarily increase their weapon attack by ~30-70%, depending on class and gear. Imagine if cheese and jigajuice lasted as long as an onyx apple. And there was no tma cap.

If you want to break down the damage formulae and make meaningful quantitative statements without cherry picking on either side, you should make sure you consider the full picture.
Click to expand...

I didn't say magic formula wasn't quadratic, i said the physical attack one is not. You said both are similar, that is plain wrong.

Milkydoor · Dec 5, 2023

brunandes said: ↑

I didn't say magic formula wasn't quadratic, i said the physical attack one is not. You said both are similar, that is plain wrong.
Click to expand...

No it's not, and I'd advise actually reading my posts if you want to asset that.

brunandes · Dec 5, 2023

Milkydoor said: ↑

No it's not, and I'd advise actually reading my posts if you want to asset that.
Click to expand...

Your words:
It is a little strange to call the previous (and new) magic damage formula "additive" when it's certainly quadratic in its variables, just like the physical damage formulae.

Milkydoor · Dec 5, 2023

Yes, the physical damage formulae are quadratic in stat and weapon attack. This isn't controversial.

brunandes · Dec 5, 2023

Milkydoor said: ↑

Yes, the physical damage formulae are quadratic in stat and weapon attack. This isn't controversial.
Click to expand...

Dafuq did you just say lmfao

Milkydoor · Dec 5, 2023

I found this useful article that might help:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadratic_function

I don't know much about Wikipedia, but hopefully they're not guilty of cherry picking too.

lv1crook · Dec 5, 2023

There are several ways to accomplish the same end goal without the unintuitive formula they chose to implement. Hopefully staff can take a second look and make something better

akashsky · Dec 5, 2023

Nightz said: ↑

Just to correct your statement a bit and avoid misinformation
500 tma from gear, including MW20 and meditation/wiz elix actually puts you at 1417 tma at level 180.
This is in fact a buff of 3.88%, the break-even point at level 180 would be at 1378 where you'd be at 100.01%. This is 461 tma from gear, mw20 & wiz elixir.

1378 can be achieved with the following gear for example, whether you find this affordable or not I'll leave that up to you to decide.

MW20 ~ 500m

175 tma wand ~ 300m

Wiz Elixir / meditation

32 int helmet ~100m

25 tma earrings ~230m

24 int bathrobe(can be replaced with much cheaper starlight) ~270m

15 tma glove ~225m

9 int racc mask ~75m

20 tma shield ~200m

Monster book ring 5

Ellin ring 1 int

Pendant 23 int ~45m

17 tma purple adv cape ~55m

4 int shoes

Prices are estimates based on my own knowledge of the market, you might not agree with all of them but it should paint a decent picture. That's 2b mesos at level 180.

That being said, I constantly see you making reference of how weak mages already are and they are deserving of bigger buffs in regards to bossing and while I understand your sentiment. This change was purely as re balance of gear/att pot scaling for mages and award those that gear their mage up, not to be a flat out buff to mages across the board in bossing. Personally I don't find mages as bad in bossing as you state them to be and it should be worth noting that they also hold incredible power elsewhere in the game, such as farming meso or exp.
Click to expand...

Does the excess "break even" tma increase or decrease with level? Based on the new scaling would a level 200 mage be expected to have more excess TMA from equips to break even?

beegoratto · Dec 5, 2023

akashsky said: ↑

Does the excess "break even" tma increase or decrease with level? Based on the new scaling would a level 200 mage be expected to have more excess TMA from equips to break even?
Click to expand...

I believe that's the case, yeah. You're expected to continue to increase the quality of your gear as you get higher level and gain access to echo at or near 200.

fartsy · Dec 5, 2023

brunandes said: ↑

I threw 500 out there as a rough number because there is no fixed number.
1378 is rather specific though, what INT vs MA did u use?

And interesting that your view of 'rebalance' gear scaling means taking out level up contribution almost entirely.
Click to expand...

i'm sure you can break level up to tma with 1.10 or 1.13*int and take the derivative of that

imo regarding gear it's prob good to compare 1x 30%, 2x 30%, 3x30% and then 5x 30% as well as 100% perf mage

edit: include echo

akashsky · Dec 5, 2023

beegoratto said: ↑

I believe that's the case, yeah. You're expected to continue to increase the quality of your gear as you get higher level and gain access to echo at or near 200.
Click to expand...

Turns out you are correct, and looks like they actually did nerf the poor and buff the rich.

You need to have the listed TMA (or more) by the listed Level, or else your damage will be lower than before the patch.

Jafel · Dec 5, 2023

akashsky said: ↑

Turns out you are correct, and looks like they actually did nerf the poor and buff the rich.

View attachment 54053

You need to have the listed TMA by the listed Level, or else your damage will be lower than before the patch.
Click to expand...

That seems intended no? The scaling was specifically for TMA from gear/pots and to combat leveling as the only source of scaling.

Do you think they should have moved the curve up a bit?

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New Mage damage formula

brunandes Windraider

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