1. Hello!

    First of all, welcome to MapleLegends! You are currently viewing the forums as a guest, so you can only view the first post of every topic. We highly recommend registering so you can be part of our community.

    By registering to our forums you can introduce yourself and make your first friends, talk in the shoutbox, contribute, and much more!

    This process only takes a few minutes and you can always decide to lurk even after!

    - MapleLegends Administration-
  2. Experiencing disconnecting after inserting your login info? Make sure you are on the latest MapleLegends version. The current latest version is found by clicking here.
    Dismiss Notice

Boss Freeze Abuse - 1st Offense should be Warning

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by postcard, Jul 29, 2020.

  1. postcard
    Offline

    postcard Selkie Jr.

    206
    96
    215
    Aug 17, 2018
    7:20 AM
    Postcard
    Bowmaster
    Vivid
    If you are not aware of what Boss Freeze/Aggro abuse is, you aren't the only one! Here is the official ToS definition on it:

    upload_2020-7-29_1-20-10.png
    What constitutes as aggro abuse has been an ongoing point of debate within the community. One of the most common problems is that people simply don't know it's a bannable offense -- they view something like preventing Alishar from attacking as a point of ingenuity or a mechanism to that facilitates an easier time in certain bosses.

    Yes, you can argue that when you decide to play the game, you agree to the Terms of Service, but let's be real, most people won't read it. It's common sense to know and understand that things like hacking/scripting/duping are not allowed in a game server, but aggro abuse is niche and specific to bugs within the game itself rather than direct interference from a player.

    Why should hitting Alishar and then walking away while your party attacks it be constituted as abuse? The game allows for it.

    How are players new to Neo Tokyo supposed to know that cloud damage from Nibergen is not damage from Nibergen itself? Furthermore, a lot of ranged attackers prefer to tank cloud damage rather than the ranged damage sustained from Nibergen by standing on the left side because they don't have the HP to tank unless they've washed. Is it fair to punish players who haven't washed on a washing optional server for using what they see as a spot intended for low HP characters to attack on? It's there.

    When Verga freezes unexpectedly due to something screwing up in the code, how can a player be blamed for that? Why should they be punished for something out of their control?

    These are bugs within the game itself that both new and old players will not realise are bugs/"exploits". Punishing players with an immediate 7 day ban for it is just straight up incomprehensible. It especially isolates new players who may have had someone in their party show them the Alishar trick without them knowing that it was against ToS.

    If the GMs want to keep people from aggro abusing, that is their prerogative, but I believe the ban rather than a warning harms more than it helps.

    Anyway, here's a SS of people following an LPQ aggro abuse wave ban:

    [​IMG]

    A friendlier reminder would've been an actual reminder.
     
    • Agree Agree x 43
    • Great Work Great Work x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Thup
    Offline

    Thup Slime

    21
    15
    30
    Aug 14, 2017
    Male
    7:20 AM
    Thup
    Cleric
    31
    Aincrad
    I also feel a 7 day ban for a 1st offense is a bit steep for simply making the Alistair not use magic attack. But rules are rules I guess?
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. aaronis
    Offline

    aaronis Slimy

    248
    127
    230
    Jul 5, 2017
    Male
    7:20 AM
    Shadower
    200
    Beaters
    Also a perma-ban on the second offense really does seem to harsh since like postcard said, LPQers probably don't know this is even aggro abuse since it isn't an obvious thing, like when i started in 2017 I got shown the alishar thing and I thought it was just a neat trick, if a GM was there I could be one unlucky boss freeze away from getting my account banned. Also bosses randomly freeze, if they freeze are we supposed to just stop attacking and give up, try to @GM or keep trying to kill it, since GM's aren't always available 24/7 and if we're not purposely trying to freeze it, then having to quit the boss run or wait an unknown amount of time for a GM to reply just sucks. I feel like a one day ban as a warning so players get a chance to read the TOS with an account ban being on the third ban would be a lot more fair.
    Another thing that makes this like not so obvious for new players is the fact that it doesn't really benefit anyone too much or hurt anyone. Like all this does realistically is save you a few potions at Alishar or Nibregen, so having a week or account ban just seems really harsh. Like the fact you can harass people twice and still be fine until the third time, while that is much more harmful to the server than bullying a level 56 whale with nipples. (slightly unrelated but people standing in front of half the fm 1 ch 1 spot for hours not letting you get a chance to reset at all should be harassment lmao, correct me if im wrong but why is that allowed)
     
    • Agree Agree x 9
    • Funny Funny x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. OP
    OP
    postcard
    Offline

    postcard Selkie Jr.

    206
    96
    215
    Aug 17, 2018
    7:20 AM
    Postcard
    Bowmaster
    Vivid
    I'm of the personal opinion that rules can be changed and there is no reason to blindly accept them. What do you think would be better in place of a 7 day ban?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  5. Eighty
    Online

    Eighty Windraider

    425
    83
    296
    Jun 19, 2018
    Male
    Nepal
    8:05 PM
    Hundred
    Marksman
    128
    Colors
    Also, are we obliged to wait for a GM to reset bosses when they are stuck? Like do we wait 15 minutes or longer if that is how long it takes or are we free to kill them?

    Edit: aaronis already ninja-asked this question above
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  6. Isaac
    Offline

    Isaac Selkie Jr.

    217
    386
    215
    Sep 15, 2015
    Male
    Vancouver
    7:20 AM
    Goblin
    Mafia
    This is a really good summary of why this section of the ToS needs to be reinvented. The game is understandably hard to debug but players shouldn't be punished for using in game mechanics.

    Take nib for an example:
    The ship was not designed to shoot lasers both ways. Stand under the ship on the right and tank it so it's attacks can't reach you? Exploit.
    The ship was designed to shoot lasers to the left. Play the game the way it is designed, or we ban you.

    There really needs to be a better way to structure "Aggro Abuse".
     
    • Agree Agree x 13
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. Orion
    Offline

    Orion Red Snail

    9
    5
    21
    Jun 25, 2017
    Male
    United Kingdom
    2:20 PM
    Riesevelt
    Priest
    104
    WeenieHutJrs
    On one hand, I can see the rationale for the existing policy. With an active playerbase of over 1600 players and a team of 15 in-game moderation staff, you have to rely on deterrence to a certain extent to prevent people from flagrantly breaking the rules when they know they'll most likely get away with it. Harassment, for example, is an offense that relies less on deterrence to prevent because there is an individual at the other end who can report that issue. Boss exploiting, not so much.

    On the other, there exists a solid portion of the playerbase that has no idea what the proper behaviour for these bosses is. Many of them also won't know much about what type of exploits can be performed on these bosses, and could inadvertently execute an exploit without realizing it. Should they then be banned for that? Anecdotally, I wouldn't have the first clue how to execute these exploits, what they'd look like or how most high-level bosses should behave in the first place.

    There are two solutions I can see here, presuming simply fixing the exploits is off the table (not surprising, given most of the sources I've seen and the general fuckery involved in trying to patch together a bug-free server).

    1) Keep the existing deterrence measures in place, issuing 7-day bans to individuals who exploit bosses. However, as I'm given to understand most bosses have an NPC gatekeeper before you're sent into the instance/PQ, just update that NPC's dialogue to include an additional option that provides information about what an exploit looks like, how to properly report that the exploit has occurred and the penalties for failing to report the exploit.

    If inadvertent boss exploits are uncommon, this shouldn't increase GM workload substantially. If they're common, then this solution is less viable (though updating the NPC dialogue would still be good).

    2) Lessen the initial impact of the deterrent. Introduce an initial 3-day ban for exploiting a boss, having the second offense be a 7-day ban and the third offence a permanent ban. People would wisen up after the initial 3-day ban, wouldn't be pushed away from the game too much, and would be careful to avoid making the same mistakes again.

    Ideally, though, I'd say a union of the two approaches would be best.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  8. akashsky
    Offline

    akashsky Horntail

    2,034
    851
    495
    Jun 10, 2017
    Male
    United States
    7:20 AM
    Disparity
    Corsair
    200
    Pasta
    I think staff should just do exactly what they did to horntail arms - make every boss that gets aggro abused have at least 1 FULL map attack. This means that you can't aggro abuse because the person with aggro will always be in range of the boss's full map attack.

    Then, you can remove aggro abuse from terms of service and give GMs 1 less thing to ban people over.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 2
    • Creative Creative x 1
  9. joota
    Offline

    joota Mr. Anchor Retired Staff

    266
    127
    251
    Jul 13, 2019
    7:20 AM
    Buccaneer
    173
    Freelancer
    I imagine you can submit a ban appeal if you think you've been unfairly banned because you didn't know a certain behavior is considered aggro abuse.
    Maybe there should be a Maple Tip about using @GM when bosses/monsters aren't attacking. I don't believe you get banned (or maybe you just get unbanned) if you contact GMs even if they're not online and your boss is being funky.

    akashskyakashsky this seems like a great suggestion but seems like a lot of manual decision making and implementing for each boss :(
     
  10. joota
    Offline

    joota Mr. Anchor Retired Staff

    266
    127
    251
    Jul 13, 2019
    7:20 AM
    Buccaneer
    173
    Freelancer
    Also I can't imagine Mano having a global attack LOL
     
    • Funny Funny x 5
  11. fael
    Offline

    fael Nightshadow

    627
    317
    345
    Jun 8, 2020
    Male
    11:20 AM
    Fael
    Night Lord
    200
    SURRA
    Hi guys!
    I agree with almost everything you said!

    I'm talking as a very newbie player, I don't know how most of bosses works, I don't know any of their mechanics. My english isn't good, so even if you explain me something I can't do in a boss map, or a specific mechanic for a boss, I won't understand quickly, and you must know there are a lot of ppl that can't speak english very well, maybe worse than me.

    In my opinion, severe penalties should only be applied in cases of severe abuse. I'm sure a high level player who makes NT bosses everyday knows most of the mechanics of the game, and he can take GREAT advantages on it, so a warning, 7 days ban and after this a permanent ban should work.

    But honestly, for a LPQ party who lures, they won't gain anything. Most of LPQers can't even hit on alishar, so it makes no sense to keep receiving damage and wasting potions to attack (and it's extremely expensive for new players). I don't think a permanent ban will be fair with this group. A 3 days ban will work as a harsh penalty already for them.

    Hope you can understand, sorry for my bad english!
     
    • Like Like x 3
  12. KurayamiLove
    Offline

    KurayamiLove Skelegon

    951
    753
    413
    Mar 15, 2015
    Male
    Nautilus
    3:20 PM
    KurayamiLove/Nagrom/Amatista
    Buccaneer
    69
    Halcyon
    Aggro abuse or aggro in general is weird as hell. Runing away from Alishar doesn't seem to me like a way to freeze it since like all mobs it does what it's supsoed to do o.o Is aggro in range of magic attack? no then follow until is on rage(Ive seen this behaviour on all walking mobs, you even "abuse" that on big foot since it will always go for magic dmg and not touch).
    On Nibergen is ok if the boss is attacking me the aggro and the rest go all the way to the right to avoid all the dmg of the boss and only take could damage? The boss is not freezing since the aggro is on reach.
    Sometimes (rarely) Vergamot freezes for no reason even with everyone close to it no crouching and not lagging.

    If anything perhaps we could get soem short of fixes to this or at least make a Maple Tip about it
     
  13. iPippy
    Offline

    iPippy Nightshadow

    655
    340
    345
    May 19, 2019
    Male
    10:20 AM
    iPippy
    Honestly it's just a huge gray zone on what is, isnt, should, and shouldnt be abuse. As others have asked, if a boss freezes because of bug with no way to leave map to fix it, are we supposed to just sit and wait for a gm or call it a failed run? Usually I put in the ticket and keep wailing at it until it either dies or gets resolved. How come freezing the ht arms wasnt considered aggro abuse if another part was left on the map attacking (eventually fixed but it's still a boss freeze, and similar tactics work on the tail)? Why is puppet allowed to stop monsters from attacking, but sacrificing a player isnt? Some have argued because it's a class skill, but doing similar with dark sight/barrel to hide from the boss is considered abuse.

    And on the puppet thing, I believe users put it far left in vergamot to stop it from attacking altogether and is considered acceptable, but have to put it left side of clouds in nibergen to *make* it attack, which contradicts itself again.

    I understand the intent of the boss freeze rule, but there are so many gray zones that dont even make sense why some are allowed and some are not.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  14. OP
    OP
    postcard
    Offline

    postcard Selkie Jr.

    206
    96
    215
    Aug 17, 2018
    7:20 AM
    Postcard
    Bowmaster
    Vivid
    People have brought up adding some kind of dialogue to NPCs as a warning/explanation about aggro abuse multiple times in the past, but it's never been implemented. A MapleTip would help too. But I think at the end of the day, a lot of people will skip past dialogue boxes unless it's idk, written in 50 point font, flashing bright red, bolded, underlined, etc -- and it would still only be addressing part of the issue.

    How many players, especially new ones, will actually submit a ban appeal though? You have to create a forum account, and I believe you need to post in at least three individual threads before you can create your own thread. It's a lot of holes to jump through for someone new to the server and in the dark about aggro abuse. Plus, the appeal turnaround time can be slow (through no fault of the GMs, I know they have lives). Obviously I can't speak for everyone, but if I were a new player, I would just move on to another game or server rather than wait.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Kimmy
    Offline

    Kimmy Administrator Staff Member Administrator Game Moderator

    10,963
    10,998
    551
    Sep 9, 2014
    The Netherlands
    3:20 PM
    Moderator Post
    Hey,

    First of all, I want to thank you for this feedback thread.

    I personally agree with this suggestion when it comes to the recent LPQ bans. I do not want the blame to be on the staff member that banned the users, because the staff member was completely enforcing our current ToS, which states any type of aggro abuse is a ban, no matter the context.

    However, shortly after the ban, a discussion was made, because I agree that people in LPQ are still quite new to the game, and the server. A bit later most of the banned users that were just associated already got unbanned, because it was clear they straight up were not aware of the violation they were doing. For the actual offenders, as in the people that did the actual abuse and teach users to do the bug that made Alishar no longer attack had their ban shortened and got told this is not allowed in MapleLegends.

    I was personally already aware that some users in LPQ were doing this, but I strongly do not encourage it at all and wish the bug was already fixed (aggro in MapleStory is a hot F-bomb mess), so right now it isn't. Not intentionally.

    We also have another clause for Bug Abuse, which is abusing the bugs that the game "allows" for it but it's still an offence. Boss Freeze Abuse is on the same line. If we completely remove the clause, players will be subject to 1st offence Account Ban under Bug Abuse instead. Just because the game lets something happen doesn't mean it's allowed, like for the rest of the Terms of Service - spamming example the N-word is not filtered yet general public wouldn't argue that we shouldn't enforce on it because the game allows it, or botting, or any other offences.

    This is a bit tricky as well. Personally, the boss randomly freezing due to a bug is in a different category compared to intentionally freezing it with a bug or specific movements. You should definitely @GM on such situations. However, if you know you didn't intentionally freeze the boss, and receive no response using @GM, you still got the rights to kill it. However, I can see how this makes things even more complicated than it already is. This is currently in discussion internally as well.

    We are still finalizing some other things internally when it comes to the rule, and how to handle things moving forward and will likely make an additional post after.

    Thank you!
     
    • Like Like x 9
    • Great Work Great Work x 4
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  16. fael
    Offline

    fael Nightshadow

    627
    317
    345
    Jun 8, 2020
    Male
    11:20 AM
    Fael
    Night Lord
    200
    SURRA
  17. Tate
    Offline

    Tate Capt. Latanica

    352
    229
    278
    Apr 16, 2020
    New Zealand
    3:20 AM
    Potayto
    Shadower
    175
    Beaters
    honestly though even when its written in bold and flashing people will still be people and do it anyway - case in point like 90% of new weddings i've joined where its CLEARLY NOTED THAT YOU SHOULD NOT EQUIP THE RING INSIDE THE HALL. i mean heck even my maplespouse went ahead and did it anyway :shrug:

    ____

    to add to the discussion, i think the critical thing at the end of the day is awareness - perhaps a thread on all bosses and how they are aggro-abused. Sure this may end up being a double-edged sword that bites back because you'd effectively be teaching people how to actually do it.. but not gonna lie even to this day i still have no idea what constitutes aggro abuse and thats purely because I dont know the mechanics well enough to know what a boss should and shouldn't be doing.

    Maybe instead of a thread on "how to aggro-abuse" make a thread on standard boss mechanics/videos/tutorials so everyone knows that if the boss doesnt behave that way = aggro abuse?

    Idk man. very much a grey area. good luck admin team on figuring this piece of the puzzle out. kudos to you <3.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  18. Eighty
    Online

    Eighty Windraider

    425
    83
    296
    Jun 19, 2018
    Male
    Nepal
    8:05 PM
    Hundred
    Marksman
    128
    Colors
    I think from what Kimmy said, you can go ahead and keep attacking after submitting a @gm.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. Voxtagrams
    Offline

    Voxtagrams Headless Horseman

    885
    381
    376
    Jun 13, 2020
    7:20 AM
    It should be logical common sense that if a BOSS doesn't attack is therefore a glitch to not take damage or have debuffs on you, if one person knows the rule they should assist the party with the knowledge of the consequences of glitching a BOSS to not attack or use its debuffs on people. If a player says something like "thats the point" to then make a boss not attack or use its abilities
    Unique attack: Multiple magical attacks (can't be evaded), summons Chronos, Platoon Chronos, Master Chronos
    HP Recovery/10 secs: -
    MP Recovery/10 secs: -
    Normal against (Status): -
    Immune against (Status): -
    Inflict status: Blind, Seal

    Then shouldn't that automatically prove that making a BOSS not attack be considered an 'exploit'?

    It should be common sense to also @GM if the issue occurs.. if theres no one sends a message to the GMs and 'hides' it as not an issue then yes, those players deserve a ban.

    Its a boss for a reason.. not a plant in Ellina or a peach in Mu Lung that you attack and get drops from and take no damage.

    If this is an issue then change @Mapowner to @Mapblock and give everyone the free time of not submitting an abuse report to get GMs to ban people for 'Harassment: KSing' because those players would be hitting 1 attack or magic damage thus not having to submit a report complaining this person KS me or, this person steal my map.

    I think all rules are 110% fair except the mechanics for 'Mapowner' thats it.
     
    • Funny Funny x 9
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  20. Soyourken
    Offline

    Soyourken Dark Stone Golem

    135
    15
    156
    Jun 24, 2017
    Male
    10:20 PM
    Soyourken
    Shadower
    162
    Family
    Around a few years back me and my friend got banned for aggro abuse at bigfoot. I was pretty irritated at the time because we didn't even realize it was aggro abuse, it was pretty dumb cause we were "duo-ing" BF in the sense that my shad would take care of the wraiths and my friend was solo-hitting BF. If I knew it was aggro abuse it would have made literally 0 difference to me to just clear the wraiths again and again because I wasn't doing anything then anyways. I remember trying to appeal it but at the end of the day it was considered aggro abuse.

    The benefit is that from then on I was super careful and think through everything to make sure that nothing I did was considered aggro abuse because another offence would be a permanent ban, on the downside anything I do considered aggro abuse intentional or not will be a permanent ban.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1

Share This Page