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Bowmaster vs Marksman under the new changes

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by GGoals, May 23, 2020.

  1. GGoals
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    GGoals Mano

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    1:55 PM
    Goals
    Bowmaster
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    Winterfell
    Hello all readers, I am Goals a level 168 bowmaster and I would like to discuss the recent marksman buffs and their good and bad points.

    First off let me say that I do agree that Marksman needed a buff. My reasoning for that is: since there are two archer classes in Maplelegends, the ideal situation would be a situation where there were as many Bowmasters as there were Marksman or at least as much of a reason to pick marksman as there was to pick bowmaster. In the old situation this was not the case.

    The pros for playing marksman were:
    1. More dps in early 4th job compared to bowmaster (until 147 w.attack without si and 192 w.att with si)
    2. Less need for base dex in the early lv’s of 4th job which makes doing zak/papulatus/krexel at lv’s 135-150 with high base int possible and makes washing a little easier.
    3. Its fun to hit big numbers with snipe

    The cons for playing marksman / reasons to pick bowmaster over marksman were:
    1. Worse 2nd job mobbing skill which makes lv 30-70 harder
    2. Worse dps after 147 w.attack without si and 192 w.attack with si
    3. The need for a bucceneer in your party to unleash your full potential
    4. The smooth hurricane skill of bowmaster is also very fun

    With these pros/cons its obvious that there was more reason to play bowmaster then there was to play Marksman for most people in the old situation. Unless you were not intrested in going over 192 w.attack or if you really liked the job there was no reason to pick marksman over bowmaster. I would estimate (this is just my opinion) that this would apply to about 90% of the archers and so we saw that a lot more players picked bowmaster over marksman.

    Again i would emphisise that a healthy balance between the two classes means (for me at least) that there is about the same amount of reason to pick marksman as there is to pick bowmaster. And in my opinion there was a 10% reason to pick marksman and a 90% reason to pick bowmaster (again numbers based on my own feelings) and i want to see this more like 50% and 50%

    Now to discuss the new changes:
    In the new situation a marksman deals the same dps as a bowmaster at 180 w.attack without si and with 265 w.attack with si.
    Lets discuss a “realistic” obtainable w.attack for a bowmaster.
    Even with a perfect Neo Tokyo bow, a 15 att cape, a 21 att glove, a 10 attack MoN, a 10 att bow mastery skill and 26 att from concentrate you get up to 225 attack (I choose for these numbers because 21 att Sock and always having gelt in nise his calculations is not really “obtainable” ).
    I believe that this is abouth the gear the average lv 190-200 bowmaster has (im a little ignorant on this) and so a lv 190-200 bowmaster will still out dps a lv 190-200 marksman without si. HOWEVER, the average lv 190-200 bowmaster will get out damaged by a lv 190-200 marksman with si in this new situation which makes the pros/cons equation a lot differently.

    Under the new situation the pros/cons for picking marksman/bowmaster now looks like this:
    the pros for playing marksman:
    1. More dps in 4th job until 180 w.att without si. I would estimate an average lv 160 bowmaster is at this amount of w.attack in gear and so a marksman will be stonger than a bowmaster untill about lv 160 without si.(180 w.att is a 14 att glove, 26 att concentrate, 10 att bow mastery skill, 120 att bow, and 10 att cape)
    2.More dps than a bowmaster in the late game with si (perf weapon and stuff) unless both use an Apple ALL THE TIME.
    3. Even less need for base dex in the early lv’s of 4th job which makes doing zak/papulatus/krexel at lv’s 135-150 with high base int even more possible and makes washing even easier.
    4. Its fun to hit big numbers with snipe

    The cons for playing marksman in the new situation
    1. Worse dps ONLY WHEN BOTH HAVE NEAR PERFECT GEAR AND ARE ON APPLE
    2. The need for a bucceneer in your party to unleash your full potential
    3. Worse 2nd job mobbing skill which makes lv’s 30-70 a lil harder
    4. Cant use hurricane and to use hurricane is fun

    A lot of people might read this and say: Goals why are you writing this, is this not a perfect situation? A bowmaster will deal more damage than a marksman starting around lv 160 unless the marksman has si.
    I would say to this the following: a bowmaster should do more damage than a marksman late game and right now this is reversed. Its not that hard to always have si, you can make a si mule easily (warriors do it) and there are a lot of people who like playing bucceneer. Its not hard to make a team for horntail and find a bucceneer who wants to join it consistently and you probably want a si for your warriors already. This means that in most boss runs in late game a marksman will actually be better to have than a bowmaster and this will make marksman the best late game archer in the game.
    I would say the only reason to pick bowmaster over marksman in the new situation is if you really don’t want to be reliant on si for your full potential or if you really think you will be able to Apple multible times each boss run.
    I would estimate that if I knew these changes were permanent a new player would be 70% likely to pick marksman and 30% likely to pick bowmaster (which is more healthy than the old situation I agree to that). I might be biased since I have invested a lot in bowmaster but please reconsider these changes and nerf the strafe skill a little so that without si a bowmaster would still need around 180 w.att/level 160 to become stronger than a marksman and with si a bowmaster would need a “realistic” w.attack to go even with them (225 w.attack or so). If this were to be the case then:
    1. Bowmasters will be harder to play in the early 4th job levels but will have an easier late game in not needing to look for si
    2. Marksman and bowmasters will have around the same dps at high level and with perfect gear.
    3. Marksman will be easier to wash than bowmaster however bowmaster will deal more dps with apples.

    This would make it truly 50/50% for people to pick either class (in my opinion) thanks for reading this all. I would like to see your responses. <3
     
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  2. OP
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    GGoals
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    GGoals Mano

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    I just want too HAMMER IT DOWN this is not the case right now.
    Marksman have become the best late game archer (assuming they have si) now.
    I dont believe this is healthy for the game

    Also this picture that Nise used is very misleading, it assumes 335 weapon attack for the bowmaster and 337 weapon attack for the marksman calculation (perf neo tokyo bow/xbow, gelt, 20 att cape, 21 att sock, 21 att glove, 10 att mon) this amount of w.attack is not doable in the game.
    this picture is only relevant when taking gelt in to consideration without gelt marksman actually wins from bowmaster. AMqMyGz.png

    This next picture explains what i have been saying the best of all just look at the attack needed to become better than a marksman its 265 weapon attack, now try to make a bowman build without apple or gelt and try to get to that attack its not doable. LM0i8GG.png
     
  3. xadra
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    xadra Capt. Latanica

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    I understand your frustration because you went through a lot of effort to optimize your BM and might feel shafted by this change. But I want to suggest that 1) without actual testing, it's just in theory that MM outdamage your BM and 2) there's no real reason BM should outdamage MM or vice versa, so why does it matter which way the balance swings?

    One of the most important parts of doing HT is not getting hit off the platform isn't it? BMs can buffer momentum cancel out of hurricane to not get hit off, while marksmen have no such luxury. BMs have the ability to boss while literally tabbed out. This unquantifiable difference makes for a massive improvement in quality of life for BM play.

    On top of that, SI is still needed to reach that potential. You say that it's not hard to find a bucc, but clearly this is a concern for a lot of people (look at all the warriors now planning to switch out of speed 6 weapons with the muling rule change). It's probably easier for us in Winterfell cause we have a small collection of some of the best buccs in the server.

    I think no matter how you slice it, BMs and MMs occupy the same role in the game and therefore redundancy to each other. Unless some changes are made that add a different utility to either (like the oft-proposed Snipe-penetrates-WATK-cancel change) they are both there for the same reason: SE + good ranged attacker. Therefore I don't see the problem with having MMs deal higher damage in theory given how easy to play BMs are thanks to hurricane.
     
    • Agree Agree x 8
  4. MIGHTYshoni
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    MIGHTYshoni Slime

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    These are my observations:
    1. A BM feeling insecure about his damage lategame. Up against a MM with SI.
    2. Tries to "hammer" something down that may or may not be theoretically correct. Pulls up random % figures and make statements out of it.
    3. Self-centred

    Discuss again when you reach 200. Tyvm.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 6
  5. OP
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    GGoals
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    GGoals Mano

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    i agree and my suggestion (last sentences of original post) was to make their late game damage equal so at around 225 att.
    The picture of adjusted max single target damage possible per minute that I posted above takes an insane weapon attack in to consideration, if we take a low weapon attack marksman actually have the highest single target damage of any class in the entire game even above theoretical corsair damage.
    EaacmVy.png

    Now if we take the realistic weapon attack of 225 instead of the misleading picture from the earlier post, then marksman will still have one of the best single target damage of the entire game and at least better than bowmaster.
    I agree that bowmaster should not necessarily deal more damage than marksman high lv, but now they deal less damage not only that they need to work hard in closing the gigantic gap lower level never being able to close it.
    If we don't care about inbalance then we could just as well not have buffed marksman in the first place.

    I will however concede that in some bosses like horntail uptime of skill usage also impacts dpm, however that is only one boss and even then a good marksman wont fall off the platfrom often.
    there is also neo tokyo, toad, cwkpq, and possible neo tokyo 2 or pink bean in the future and platforms do not impact these bosses like horntail.
    I want markman to become better than they were and I really want buccs to be buffed since they are kinda weak now. However night lords deal with having to always have se around and that is their price for most single target dpm in the entire game (a good exchange i would say). Having to deal with finding si is a decent price for having insane low lv dpm and still high endgame damage if you ask me.
     
  6. OP
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    GGoals
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    GGoals Mano

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    A bit rude all my numbers have nise his calculations to back up and the % statments are me trying to put my feelings in to understandable words i wrote that down very clearly, those statements are not math.
    Also If I was insecure i would not call for equal damage late game / i would still think these buffs are a bit extreme even if I played marksman. I did not primarily choose bm for their damage but because I love archers.
     
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  7. Blu301
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    Blu301 Pac Pinky

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    While I have a BM, I don't feel pressed about MM getting buffed. I'm definitely glad they did. Since I started playing Legends it's always seemed like all the decisions made regarding balance between classes are really well thought out. I always feel like the server's getting closer and closer to as balanced as things could be.

    Obviously it wouldn't make sense that MM are superior to BM early 4th job and then can virtually match them in endgame (I don't do maths so I can't vouch for accuracy there, it's just hearsay), like it should probably scale a bit stronger in BM favor. But that's contingent on SI, and though people often calculate damage figures assuming optimal buffs the reality is there's plenty of situations where SI isn't present.

    BM is still a top class, I feel like it's enjoyable to play and we still have so many perks. You could say archers in general are the most sought after bossing class after bishops, as in it's easy for us to get on runs because of SE + solid solo-target output. The way I see it this MM buff is completely adjacent to BM, like 4th job archers are still scarce so MM getting buffed doesn't have a detrimental effect on their BM counterpart.

    Additionally, BM still have a lot of advantages. Attack pots have a much greater effect on us, we don't need any other buffs like SI to do optimal damage, we have alt-tab hurricane, and there's something to be said about how awesome hurricane is period it's just the smoothest skill
     
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  8. iPippy
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    iPippy Nightshadow

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    I mean, if we're talking highest raw party dpm potential, a comp that already makes heavy use of NL has much lower need for a bucc (TL I guess?), and is better off taking the *slightly weaker* bm and fitting yet another nl in the slot. A comp balanced around si+se that uses classes like sair, dk, hero would now rather have an mm over a BM. Yet a bm can also fit into this core much easier than an mm can fit into NL-spam.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    Just so you guys know, that graph of MM/BM dpm as a function of attack is incorrect. I confirmed this earlier with nise, he just hasn't gotten around to fixing the chart.
     
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  10. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    To follow up on my previous comment, let me present my own rough estimates on where the BM -MM crossover occurs. Let us first assume that BM and MM approximately have the same range (I know mm is a bit higher due to higher multiplier, +5% more mastery, and extra 5 atk from crossbow expert) to get a first order estimate. Let us first calculate the MM % damage per min,
    -1 "cycle" is 7 strafes + 1 snipe (with SI)
    -each strafe/snipe is 600ms, so 1 cycle is about 5 seconds (5040ms), and you can fit 11.9 cycles into 1min
    -every arrow of strafe (with SE obviously) has a 35% chance to do 75% damage, anda 65% chance to do 315% damage, so on average each arrow does 231% damage
    -there are 5 lines of strafe
    -snipe does 200k damage per cast, this basically translates to a ~2.4m dpm which we add on at the end
    The % damage done per min (ignoring snipe for now) is given by 231% *5 * 7 * 11.9 = 96211%
    The damage per min is then given by 962.11 * average range + 2.4m

    Now onto BMs,
    -each arrow of hurricane has a 35% chance to do 100% damage and a 65% chance to do 240% damage, which means 257% damage per arrow on average
    -hurricane hits 500 times per min
    The dpm is then given by 500 * 2.57 * average range

    Here is the correct plot of dpm vs average range,
    [​IMG]
    Forgive my shitty graph making skills, Blue = MM, Red = BM
    The crossover range is somewhere ~7k, but keep in mind this calculation does not take into account the fact that MMs have a higher range. Roughly speaking MMs should have about ~10% more average range than their equivalently gear BM counterpart. Nevertheless, this gives you a rough idea of where the crossover occurs.

    To give you an idea, a lvl 200 near max gear BM on mw +echo + concentrate will have ~8.7k range, which is well beyond the crossover point even without apples. Note that in nise's graph the crossover point occurs at ~260 atk, but my previous example of 8.7k range, which is already beyond the crossover point, can be achieved at around ~220atk.

    For the record, I would have preferred if they buffed MM more. I think a slight calculation error might have made so that staff did not buff MM by as much as they thought.

    TLDR; The plot OP showed had some errors, BM is still stronger lategame without apples/gelts, MM still trash plz buff more

    EDIT: I have been told that it seems like its actually better to do 8 strafe 1 snipe for SI MM, so here are is the graph again for 8 strafe 1 snipe ( also apparently snipe/strafe is 600ms cd not 630, so some slight corrections)

    [​IMG]
    BM = red, MM = blue

    This actually looks a bit better, the crossover point is somewhere around 9k average BM range now, which means roughly speaking BM = MM in the lategame(on a dummy)
     
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  11. OP
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    GGoals
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    GGoals Mano

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    Wow thanks a lot for you calculations, if what you are saying is correct than that is really good.
    I would just like to say two things at the end here, first even if I were to be correct about the crossover point being 265 attack I would still choose the new situation over the old one. Sure in my opinion the archer classes wouldnt be balanced however it would still be a lot more balanced than in the old situation.
    secondly if the crossover point is indeed 220 attack than that is exactly what I wanted as stated in my original post, archers would all deal a comaparable amount of damage with bowmasters having a slight edge in the late game vs marksman in the early game. thanks a lot for your input.
     
  12. HollyCrap
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    HollyCrap Capt. Latanica

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    Just want to contribute a little bit on this:

    Coming from a MM, BM MUST do more dmg late game, for the simple reason that that's why tons of ppl picked the class in the past. They were willing to lose on mobbing (Piercing Arrow, Articuno...) because of the superior single target DPM, or just for style idk.

    Drastically changing that (making BM only superior on unrealistic end game conditions) would be a direct affront to those people choices.

    A better way of approaching this buff would had been making snipe hit through Weap. Cancel and buff MM boost (maybe straffe a little bit, making it 120% 4 lines, the 5th line is really OP with SE).
     
  13. MIGHTYshoni
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    MIGHTYshoni Slime

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    Yes 8 strafes + 1 snipe. After factoring human error, yea BM = MM in the late game (on a dummy). Realistically on boss fights? hard to say.

    Will it be possible for them to introduce a DPM chart command. @dpmchart or smth to show the dpm dealt to a certain boss by order of ranking during the entire duration of the boss fight.
    Some sort of damage meter like the one they have in world of warcraft. Immediately you can see which IGN (Class) is dealing the most damage/carrying the party. Sounds like a necessary add on for such PVE oriented mushroom game. What do you guys think? Shld I start a suggestion thread
     
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  14. Xydan
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    Xydan Chronos

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    Piercing Arrow sucks. It's god awful for mobbing. And articuno is 'eh' at best. Honestly, Arrow Bomb is probably a better mobbing skill, since it crits for 3.4x instead of +240% like it should.
     
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  15. Althariisa
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    Althariisa Slimy

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    Why playing maple its like studying physics? lol
     
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  16. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    It turns out that I was actually wrong, for some reason BM's strafe is 600ms and MM strafe is 630ms, so hilariously enough my initial calculation was correct and my edit was wrong lol.
     
  17. Xydan
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    Xydan Chronos

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    There was endless discussion about this, but I think that ayumi was wrong and they are both the same speed.
     
  18. Selquin
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    Selquin Headless Horseman

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    I went to investigate this after you brought this up. By counting the number of MM strafes(with SI) in 1 min, I counted 95-96 strafes per min, which means that the delay is indeed 630ms.
     
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  19. aaronis
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    aaronis Slimy

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    Hot take but mm should do more damage late game because the ability to legally bot by clicking out while holding hurricane is a bigger pro than anything marksman do (playing them is way more of a struggle ). also don’t tell me it’s illegal cuz every bm does it and i’ve never seen anyone get banned for it soooo
     
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  20. RegalStar
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    RegalStar Nightshadow

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    Honestly, the reason why I called for things like Snipe hitting through cancels, Blind hitting bosses and Piercing being usable in-air (this is pretty significant in HT as you can consistently hit 4 targets with it if you can do that) is so that both BM and MM can have their niche for existence in endgame instead of just there-can-only-be-one.
     
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