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Elemental wand penalty

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by brunandes, Mar 27, 2023.

  1. akashsky
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    akashsky Zakum

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    Lets say this suggestion goes through and every bishop is forced to become a LUK bishop. How much TMA would they lose?

    Its already agreed that luk bishop is theoretically superior with addition of all timeless items. Lets look at the other case where a current LUK-less bishop is now forced to become a LUK bishop without changing any of their gears other than the wand.

    The new luk bishop will use the timeless aeas staff.

    Average TL Staff has 140 TMA clean. Given average Level up RNG, it will gain 12 magic and 7.5 int (lets round down to 7). This means the AVERAGE clean TL staff is going to be 159 TMA. Compare against perf clean ele wand, which is 153 TMA. 6 TMA gain.

    I am comparing average clean TL staff to perfect clean wand because the TL staff will be untradable.

    TL Staff requires 100 LUK.

    Bishop has 4 base luk (since they are forced to).
    Helmet can be 17 luk (more if you get auf helmet).
    Pendant can be 23 luk (more if you get timeless pendant).
    Cape can be 5 luk (crimsonheart cape).
    Rings will be anywhere from 11 to 20 luk (depending on events), lets assume no events so only 11 luk.

    In total, bishop will have 4+17+23+5+11, or 60 LUK without sacrificing any INT.

    100 LUK required to wear the staff, so you are minus 40 stat. 100 - 60.

    But you are +6 from the clean TL wand. So, a bishop main that has tier 10 ring and is reasonably geared on their other slots stands to lose about 34 TMA making the transition.

    If you decide to go for auf helmet, TL pendant, event rings, get an above average clean TL staff, its possible to lower the gap more.

    auf -> plus 3 (20 luk avg)
    TL pendant -> plus 3 (not too hard to get 26 int / 26 luk)
    event rings -> plus 7 (2 extra event rings, usually +3 / +4 all stat)
    above average staff -> plus 7 (2 extra TMA clean, +4 extra magic from level, +1 extra int from level)

    3+3+7+7 = 20.

    Net result would be nerf of around 14 TMA.

    So if a bishop main (with tier 10 ring) is forced to become a LUK mage, they will lose somewhere between 14 to 34 TMA assuming they do nothing but change their weapon to the timeless version.

    How catastrophic would this nerf be to bishops? Would it turn all the bishop mains into unplayable bishop mules?
     
    • Like Like x 2
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  2. Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    Technically net TMA loss would be capped at 30 since NT wand is a thing fwiw, though perf NT wands would probably be hard to come by.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Skelegon

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    The availability of NT wands and Aeas Hand would be catastrophically low to the point where most of these characters would become unplayable for a long time if not forever
     
  4. akashsky
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    akashsky Zakum

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    You do realize these items are craftable?
     
  5. beegoratto
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    beegoratto Skelegon

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    Is it worth it though
     
  6. HimeHam
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    HimeHam Mixed Golem

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    or just buff staffs without nerfing wands?
     
  7. Vowels
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    Vowels Slimy

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    You are arguing for bishop mains right? Then since I am one I am allowed to say how much 14 to 34 TMA loss represent without being called an outlier. I say this because I recon a non-bishop main would find losing that amount meaningless but a bishop main would find it in the magnitude of billions.

    With my current gear getting an additional 14 tma costs around 18,600,000,000 mesos and getting 34 tma would cost around 31,000,000,000 mesos. So yea it would be catastrophic, furthermore my goal of achieving maximum magic would be impossible unless you wanna say I can pass multiple +5 cs remaking gears. Also timeless is untradeable and thats absolutely disgusting and the biggest L in this scenario.

    My case aside, I find the change unneeded because its a no problem.
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
  8. Gurk
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    Gurk Nightshadow

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    I think he was simply contextualizing the suggestion without arguing for a particular side.
     
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  9. Vowels
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    Vowels Slimy

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    gork: drops?
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  10. akashsky
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    akashsky Zakum

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    I am not arguing for either side, I am simply providing an analysis of what the end results could look like if this suggestion was implemented.
     
    • Informative Informative x 3
  11. fartsy
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    fartsy Skelegon

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    buff me nerf everyone else
     
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  12. OP
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    brunandes
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    brunandes Windraider

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    Not sure if you are deliberately being condescending but if suggestions are only made to benefit the pool of endgame players the game would be the dead. There is a need to make the game more interesting and fun for the wider player base.
     
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  13. TermiteLover
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    TermiteLover Horny Mushroom

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    The majority of people who have bishops use them exclusively for leeching or HS easy boss runs. The actual percentage of them that main them end game is very small, which is evident by people always struggling to recruit them for HT. Mages can and do transition into timeless at 200, but it doesnt make sense doing it before then. The 40-50 extra points needed to be in luk to equip the gear, results in 30 less mp per level, so 6 hp down. Over the 50 or so levels you would have that upto LVL200, you would be down a potential 300hp. And anyone that mains a late/end game bossing mage knows how valuable 300hp is. I'm not sure why you so stuck on making Bishops even more pepega for all content but leeching, but you obviously have a poor understanding of the class
     
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  14. HimeHam
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    HimeHam Mixed Golem

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    But does it actually make it more interesting and fun? imo it'd just replace the current build with a LUK focused one. It forces all the current Bishops to re-gear, and for what? It won't make Bishop gameplay any more exciting. If anything it'll trigger all of the Bishop players because the gear they spent hundreds if not thousands of hours putting together has become obsolete. As a member of the wider player base I don't like this idea.

    I want staffs to be useful just as much as I want Axes, 2hAxes, 2hBWs, and Polearms to be useful, but that doesn't mean nerfing the existing stuff. I want to see these options find a niche where they are better and scenarios where they are worse.

    The elite player base uses Archmages to 1 Hit stronger enemies. Bishops are the Mage class for the average player. Implementing nerfs to this class only hurts us.

    If Bishops were overpowered I could see some need for a nerf, but in all honesty Bishops are in severe need of buffs right now if they are to stay relevant as an active class in the future. I want to see changes that incentivize active Bishop gameplay.

    All in all seems like a lot of work for the balancing team for literally no reward other than people who messed up and made a LUK mage won't have messed up now, but every existing mage on the server now has to spend millions if not billions of Mesos to fix their mages.
     
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  15. OP
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    brunandes
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    brunandes Windraider

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    Yes you can say that existing mages will be triggered, of course. Go look at the old forums when Neckson implemented the change.
    For a more forward looking perspective, new players would not have 'messed up' if they followed the luk mage approach from their childhood. I see that as a positive.
     
  16. HimeHam
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    HimeHam Mixed Golem

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    what if in my post I stated a better alternative where current and new players can both be happy and nobody has a ruined character?
     
  17. guto
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    guto Slime

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    The best option for the server would be finding a way to make luk gear viable and not nerf bishops. This way the weapon progression would be more newbie friendly and more entertaning as you would be potentialy changing weapons and increasing your damage more frequently, what obviously is more satisfying than just adding 5 int to stats. Maybe the answer is to buff all staffs/wands that require luk? And/or nerf ellemental wands/staffs?
     
  18. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Nightshadow

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    You don't need 100 LUK to equip Timeless staff because Cabatina and Hermosa give some LUK. So if you have both of those (and why wouldn't you if you are using an Aeas Hand as your endgame staff) then you only need around 90 LUK. You can even go with Doomsday Staff at 80 LUK if you don't have event rings. A well-scrolled Doomsday Staff could easily be on-par with an elemental wand. It's also worth considering scrolling some mid-level mage robe as it gives INT clean and that would give LUK as well.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2023
  19. akashsky
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    akashsky Zakum

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    The analysis was done for a LUKLESS bishop attempting to become LUK, while only changing the weapon. As a result, they keep all other existing LUKLESS gear. I agree the gap is much less for a pure LUK mage making use of LUK armors, but this isn't the scenario that was being analyzed.

    Also, a doomsday staff is 123 tma clean at best. A clean ele wand is 153 tma at best. By on par, did you mean that a well scrolled doomsday staff would be equal to a clean elemental wand?
     
  20. Daydreamer
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    Daydreamer Nightshadow

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    Yeah I meant to a clean or poorly scrolled ele wand. As an alternative to an ele wand if you don't have enough LUK or money for an Aeas Hand.
     

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