1. Hello!

    First of all, welcome to MapleLegends! You are currently viewing the forums as a guest, so you can only view the first post of every topic. We highly recommend registering so you can be part of our community.

    By registering to our forums you can introduce yourself and make your first friends, talk in the shoutbox, contribute, and much more!

    This process only takes a few minutes and you can always decide to lurk even after!

    - MapleLegends Administration-
  2. Experiencing disconnecting after inserting your login info? Make sure you are on the latest MapleLegends version. The current latest version is found by clicking here.
    Dismiss Notice

Half damage cancels

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Awrien, Nov 4, 2021.

  1. Awrien
    Offline

    Awrien Horny Mushroom

    45
    22
    56
    Nov 21, 2019
    Toronto
    11:27 PM
    Awrien/BoatyMcBoat
    Shadower, Corsair
    200
    Syndicate
    It seems widely agreed upon that cancels are just a bad mechanic. They artificially increase the length of the fight by forcing you to do nothing for a bit. There's no meaningful decisions to make or ways to play around it. The only place I find them interesting is in HT main body, where players are forced to move around and think about where they output their damage. It has also lead to interesting class specific techniques to optimize damage (such as BMs attacking mid head from the right side).

    Making cancels halve your damage rather than 1 damage is less drastic than outright removing it, still keeps HT interesting, and actually might make cleave relevant again.

    If cancels instead halve damage, that makes clear times faster across the board, and makes bossing more worthwhile in general. You may need to adjust timers, or exp/drop rates depending on the boss. My immediate thought is that it's probably not great if scarlion/targa become too easy to solo, but I'm not going to go into the specifics of rebalancing here.

    I'm going to focus more on HT specifically, because every other boss is affected only by how quickly they will be cleared, and there isn't much else to consider. Ranged attackers won't see much change, as they will still swap targeting heads around the cancels. However, it would give more flexibility to classes who struggle with targeting from specific sides. For example, a marksman on the right side might choose to continue attacking right head through the halved damage cancel rather than dropping down to the wings, depending on party composition. Same idea if multiple heads are cancelled at the same time.

    This also gives cleave a bit more to attack. As it currently is, even though cleavers can target two heads at a time, the cancels basically leave only one target open at a time. With half damage cancels, this instead becomes 1.5 targets. Cleavers can still move between cleaving arm/wing/head and head/head based on party composition and cancels, but groups with more than one cleaver will no longer be stuck with what are basically bad single target attackers.

    This might make the fight too easy overall, though again there could be adjustments made to the timer, or increasing the HP of certain parts.
     
    • Agree Agree x 7
    • Creative Creative x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  2. -ovv
    Online

    -ovv Horntail

    2,218
    875
    500
    Feb 23, 2020
    Male
    8:27 PM
    -ovv
    Beginner
    200
    Honor
    Although I agree that cancels on preheads are dumb, I don't think the argument holds that much in body phase since there are just so many targets. With this, someone could solo Horntail using infinite smoke and multiple ranged attackers with ease.
    Also, I think 50% reduction is still too low. I'd push for something like 80-90% reduction instead, otherwise you're going to see ranged attackers just afk attack the entire head phase.
     
  3. Thuglifer
    Offline

    Thuglifer Capt. Latanica

    339
    87
    273
    Sep 1, 2021
    Male
    12:27 PM
    Beginner
    Honestly, i like how these support skills were made for the 3rd job segment and it feels kinda a waste to see it go forgotten during boss runs. How about we instead give these aforementioned skills a secondary usage during boss runs. As these skills have been used during grinding in the 3rd job era, at maps like dual birks/ skele that casts power/def up. Yes, it does not have a cooldown which may be too op but if u're suggesting halfing the dmg cancels it wouldn't be that over powered. Also, it'd be nice to see this suggestion happen via a skill cast rather than it be by default on the boss which propels more inclusion and need for warriors as well as bringing in a slightly more interesting gameplay.

    For example, Armor crash once cast during a WC and with a i.e. 50% success rate, would apply a half dmg cancel instead (we could change the color tone on the yellow WC to a faded yellow instead, visually showing it's been successfully applied and likewise for the Blue MC and buffed wings).

    *Figures are for illustrative purposes only.

    Armor Crash (3rd job - crusader)
    Nullifies the defense buff used by the monster with a given success rate.
    Level 20: MP -7; 100% probability to nullify enemy's physical defense-up
    + 50% probability to half enemy's physical damage cancel (WC)

    Magic Crash (3rd job - dk)
    Cancel out enemy's magical defense up skill in a certain rate.
    Level 20: MP -7; 100% probability magic guard is nullified
    + 50% probability to half enemy's magical damage cancel (MC)

    Power Crash (3rd job - wk)
    Cancels out enemy's power up skill.
    Level 20: MP -7; 100% success rate power up improvement skill of the enemy is nullified
    + 50% probability to half enemy's physical damage boost (power up/buffed)

    edit (some ideas):
    - ability to crash on WC/MC could be instead required to be casted directly beside the animation (heads for HT in this case instead of abs, requiring some repositioning and climbing).
    - one could even apply a CD of 20-30mins or so on this skill, aligning it between TL and Ress. but that'd make it unusable for grinding, luckily, not many uses this skill.
    - only caster of crash would have bonus dmg % (i.e totaling 0-30% dmg reduction) on affected boss while the non casters (crew members) would deal 50% dmg as per suggested by OP. additionally, could act as a trade off for crashers, caster could be given ( -accuracy / - hp % / remove stance effects? ) per attack debuff for the period of the WC, requiring some gear investments.
    - similar concept as corsair's
    Homing Beacon. Could have crash skill affect successful casters only during WC, dealing 50% dmg reduction by caster and the non casters would still do 1 dmg.
     
  4. Gurk
    Offline

    Gurk Nightshadow

    668
    445
    350
    Mar 9, 2020
    Male
    8:27 PM
    Gxrk
    Hero, Bishop, Marksman, Shadower, Buccaneer, Corsair
    That's how we end up with crash mules.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  5. LeonardoJF
    Offline

    LeonardoJF Zakum

    1,732
    312
    460
    Jun 16, 2021
    Male
    Rio grande do Sul - BR
    1:27 AM
    ItzLeo
    Paladin
    200
    Favela
    90-75% ish of damage reduce is fair than 50..
     
  6. Thuglifer
    Offline

    Thuglifer Capt. Latanica

    339
    87
    273
    Sep 1, 2021
    Male
    12:27 PM
    Beginner
    crash aoe radius is small, wouldnt be much of a muling issue as u gotta climb towards the WC parts lol, while sacrificing dpm
     
  7. Ainz
    Offline

    Ainz Zakum

    1,666
    1,081
    490
    May 2, 2015
    Male
    Netherlands
    5:27 AM
    So many I keep forgetting
    0
    The dpm you win back is significantly larger than the dpm you sacrifice, it would 100% be muled.
     
  8. Thuglifer
    Offline

    Thuglifer Capt. Latanica

    339
    87
    273
    Sep 1, 2021
    Male
    12:27 PM
    Beginner
    you should be comparing dpm by repositioning to cast vs dpm with perma halfed WC, i reckon repositioning would be lower in most scenario.

    im not saying it won't be muled but if a skill had to be cast to reduce WC effects, im sure in most case it'd be lower dmg dealt in total than with when the boss has WC already perma halfed. even if crash mules appear, it would be more meso sink than sed shads.
     
  9. Alyosha
    Offline

    Alyosha Skelegon Retired Staff

    916
    582
    413
    Mar 9, 2017
    8:27 PM
    Dostoevsky
    Dark Knight
    200
    Spirit
    In Horntail the place where crash/dispel works is bottom center abs. They don't function if you're hugging heads and using those skills
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. kalash
    Offline

    kalash Headless Horseman

    829
    233
    376
    Oct 18, 2016
    Male
    5:27 AM
    Kalash
    Night Lord
    200
    Halcyon
    HH mules coming back?
     
  11. Thuglifer
    Offline

    Thuglifer Capt. Latanica

    339
    87
    273
    Sep 1, 2021
    Male
    12:27 PM
    Beginner
    we can make them
     
  12. Snork
    Offline

    Snork Capt. Latanica

    339
    384
    278
    Feb 19, 2018
    5:27 AM
    Snorf
    Paladin
    Lore
    Why is always "it's gonna be muled" the first argument against giving jobs good utility. Every good utility or buff is gonna be muled, that's just the reality of the meta and the obsessive urge to min-max this game. I don't think it's a good reason to dismiss making these crash skills relevant. Paladin and Hero are crying for some utility, so why not give them this?
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Cak33
    Offline

    Cak33 Headless Horseman

    819
    342
    371
    Oct 24, 2019
    Male
    12:27 PM
    NotCut3
    Hero
    172
    Active
    It's because of this reality, and the desire to maintain the game's difficulty thats why "its gonna be muled" is always the first argument.

    Not sure if this is possible, but may I suggest a 1% damage reflection to replace wc/mc
     
  14. akashsky
    Offline

    akashsky Horntail

    2,024
    844
    495
    Jun 10, 2017
    Male
    United States
    8:27 PM
    Disparity
    Corsair
    200
    Pasta
    First reaction is it’s going to be muled because muling is here to stay and it heavily impacts game balance. If you can figure out a way for an active warrior to be able to crash over any mule the suggestion might have more promise.
     
  15. Gurk
    Offline

    Gurk Nightshadow

    668
    445
    350
    Mar 9, 2020
    Male
    8:27 PM
    Gxrk
    Hero, Bishop, Marksman, Shadower, Buccaneer, Corsair
    With how heavily muling is ingrained into the server at this point, we cannot afford to ignore the muling implications of such changes. When trying to make a class relevant, any significant balance changes, especially ones that add party utility where there previously was none, must be made in a way such that a mule does not effortlessly make moot the benefits of bringing an actual user of that class or else it will have done nothing but further powercreep the server.

    The change needs to impact the class's overall place in the meta and the desirability of actual users who play the class, not simply add another tool to the muling kit, and there are certainly ways to go about doing that if we get a bit more creative than "press x button to receive y benefits". That being said, there are other ways to make heroes useful without being as heavy-handed, such as changing the mechanics of HT to better favor cleave.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Precel
    Offline

    Precel Zakum Retired Staff

    1,797
    247
    460
    Nov 13, 2018
    Male
    11:27 PM
    Precel
    Priest
    100
    Spirit
    Make probability and/or cancel reduction scale with attack damage in an exponential manner. This way low damage mules don't benefit as much (0~10%) unless significant investments are made, while warrior mains can rake in more benefits (30%~70%) as they continue to reach the end game.

    Of course this is a balancing headache and overly simplistic, but it's one way to counter muling.
     
  17. Thuglifer
    Offline

    Thuglifer Capt. Latanica

    339
    87
    273
    Sep 1, 2021
    Male
    12:27 PM
    Beginner
    this is pretty nice tbh, maybe we could also take a look into the possibility of crash skill casters receiving debuffs as well (-acc/ -hp % per attack skill) during the WC duration as a trade off: casters could also get more dmg % (i.e totaling 0-30% dmg reduction) than the halfed dmg (50% dmg reduction) the other non casters (crew) would be dealing.
    *added this up above
     
  18. Snork
    Offline

    Snork Capt. Latanica

    339
    384
    278
    Feb 19, 2018
    5:27 AM
    Snorf
    Paladin
    Lore
    Thank you for the explanation. My perspective comes from being a pretty casual player. You may understand my frustration when reading the forums and the largest and constant obstacle to balancing is they way the veterans have decided the game should be played...
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 2

Share This Page